Revelation 5:1-6
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[00:00:00] All right, so we'll be starting chapter five tonight. So I was gonna do a little bit of review on chapter four, and then I was gonna just give you some dates that'll help as we, uh, progress in the book. Um, but I argued, or I tried to make the argument, I tried to make the case both contextually in the book of Revelation as well as, uh, referring to Daniel 7, that chapter four and five, because five is still the scene in heaven, uh, is Je- the ascension of Christ.
Okay? So there's a sense in which when John went to heaven in the Spirit, he also went back in time, and he was viewing the ascension of Christ. And we're actually gonna talk a little bit more about that today because I think there are more hints in chapter five, uh, that point to the fact that this is Jesus entering heaven.
It's not something that's happening 2,000, 3,000 years later. It just wouldn't make sense. So I believe it was the ascension. I believe that it's equivalent to Daniel 7, where one [00:01:00] like the Son of Man approaches the Ancient of Days. Um, John was in the Spirit. Uh, he was having a vision when he went to heaven.
Uh, he is seeing what I believe took place in 30 AD. Uh, anyone remember what the 24 elders represented?
God's elect? God's elect, yeah. So they were just representative of the church. I gave some other, uh, possibilities, uh, but I think all those-- even if you tweak the answer a little bit, it's still representing the church. Whether it's the heads of the 12 twe-- tribes and ultimately the 12 apostles, it's still representing the elect, representing the, the church.
And the point is they were human representatives. Uh, the living creatures were? Anyone remember? Seraphim? Close. It rhymes with seraphim. Cherubim. Cherubim. Cherubim, yeah. Okay, and I get that from Ezekiel 10, uh, verses 1, 15 and 20. Because [00:02:00] the way Ezekiel, uh, describes these odd-looking angels is basically the same type of description we find in Revelation, and Ezekiel makes it very clear they're cherubim.
Ezekiel what? Uh, Ezekiel-- Well, actually chapter 1:10. But specifically calling them cherubim, chapter 10, verses 1, 15 and 20. Where, uh, where is, uh, the, the notable scene? It's kind of a hint. Where's the notable scene that we see, uh, seraphim? Anyone remember? Daniel's visions? Not off the top of my head, but th-there's a very notable scene in scripture.
Isaiah 6. Okay, the angels flying around the throne room in Isaiah 6 with the six wings and they're crying out, "Holy, holy, holy." Isaiah, uh, identifies them as seraphim. So, um, all right. So that's just kind of some review, uh, from last week. And then I gave you some, uh, fill in [00:03:00] the blanks for some dates, and this is just kinda to help us as we, uh, uh, move forward, especially, uh, in chapter 6, but even now it'll be helpful.
So, uh, the outbreak of the Neronic persecution. Was the church being persecuted before Nero? Yes. By whom or who? By the Jews. Jews. We read about it in Acts, okay? The first persecutors of the church were the Jews. In fact, historically, and we'll probably have more to say about this, uh, later, but were the Jews allowed to execute people when they crucified Christ?
No. No. No. They had to get- Okay. They were not allowed to, to do that. There were a few exceptions, but they were not allowed to do it. They had to convince Pontius Pilate. Well, uh, soon afterwards, when the Christian Church started and started spreading, uh, believe it or not, the Jews got very chummy with Nero.[00:04:00]
In fact, Nero had Jews in his court. In fact, there's some historical evidence, I don't know how valid this is, and trust me, it doesn't mean anything in terms of morality, but there's some historical evidence that Nero actually converted to Judaism. He was very fond of the Jews, had Jews in his court, all that.
Uh, at some point, I don't remember if it was Nero or the emperor before, but they reinstated the right for the Jews to engage in capital punishment, and the reason for the reinstatement was specifically persecution of the church. So prior to Rome's persecution of the church, uh, the Jews persecuted the church.
The outbreak of the Neronic persecution, AD 64. So AD 64. Um, I've argued, and usually I've said 67, I'm gonna back it up just a little bit for, uh, clarity's sake, but the writing of Revelation was probably sometime in late 65 or early 66. That makes [00:05:00] a little more sense of the dates
Uh, the commissioning of Vas-Vespasian. Anyone remember who Vespasian was?
Uh, Emperor of Rome He was. He was later. But, uh, when he was commissioned as, as general, he was actually leading the assault on Jerusalem. Okay, he was leading the assault on Jerusalem. The emperor was killed. I can't remember the guy's name, but we'll cover it later. Uh, he was called back to Rome to become emperor, and then his son Titus finished the job in Jerusalem.
But the commissioning of Vespasian was spring of AD 67. The death of Nero, which resulted in Roman civil wars, was June of AD 68. So I think I just answered my own question. It was the death of Nero that caused Vespasian... I think it was like six months later, because the Senate didn't want another emperor, [00:06:00] so there was a, a, a time gap.
But about six months later, Vespasian was recalled because the army wanted an emperor, and he was crowned emperor. Um, and then the destruction of Jerusalem was? 70 AD. 70 AD. So any questions about those dates? And again, they will come in handy later, so I just thought I'd give them to you now. So Revelation chapter five, if you all would open up to Revelation chapter five.
And then there are only, what, 13 verses? 14 verses. So if we can go around starting with, uh, uh, Brock, and let's just read two verses a, a piece. And guys, you have to read. Wives, it's your choice.
I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" And no one in heaven [00:07:00] or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it.
And I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals." And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God
Then he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne. Now, when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls [00:08:00] full of incense, which are the prayers
of the saints And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, to open the seals thereof. And you was, you were slain. You have redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, and has made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads and myriads and thousands and thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea and all that is in them saying, To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Okay. All right. So let's back up [00:09:00] to verse one. And, uh, so in verse one, uh, who is the one seated on the throne? And I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne. Yahweh. Yes, Yahweh, but more specifically in terms of which- Jesus. Nope, wasn't Jesus. Jesus is the lamb. It's God the Father. Jesus is the lion taking the...
Okay, it's God the Father. So it's the, the Father, okay? Same picture we have in Daniel chapter seven, the Ancient of Days. Yes, it's Yahweh, but specifically it's the Father because one like the Son of Man, Jesus, is coming and he's gonna be presented with a kingdom. So I saw in the right hand, hand of him who sat on the throne a-- My translation says book, and, uh, the Greek word is-- could be translated book, but the description, uh, historical evidence in terms of when we actually started using what's called a codex or a book like what we know, this was a scroll, okay?
It was a [00:10:00] scroll. It was rolled up. As the text says, it was written on the inside and on the back, and it was sealed with seven seals. Now, let me ask you a question, and there's, there's a, there's a point, uh, to this question. If the scroll was rolled up, and if it was sealed with seven seals tightly, how would John know that it was written on the front and back?
You'd be able to see the writing on the
outside Double-sided scroll? Yeah, it was a double s-- Let me see your paper. It was a double-sided scroll, okay? So if I roll up my double-sided scroll, and I seal it tightly, how do you know this is written on the inside, the front and the back?
And my, my question and the answer is gonna make real good sense to you in just a minute as to why I'm asking that. [00:11:00] Okay? And here's the simple answer: you don't. Okay? And here's my point. We have to be very careful about paying too much attention to every single detail in this kind of literature. Okay?
John knows it was written on the inside and out because he was there long enough to see it opened. Okay? He's simply telling this-- telling us that right now. Okay? Uh, in addition to that, um, things start to happen before the scroll is opened, right? I mean, if we get to the next chapter, as the seals are being broken, things are starting to happen.
Okay? But I'm gonna argue the judgment is what's written on the scroll. Um, in addition to that, and some people will make a, uh, huge thing about this, uh, you could translate the Greek that the scroll was on his right hand. Okay? And some people, and I'm not even gonna [00:12:00] get into to what they say or whatever, but some people try to make a big deal out of it's on his right hand versus in his right hand.
And it just-- it's just the preposition that says he's holding it. So I'm not downplaying the details of scripture because I think the details of scripture are very important. I think the specific wording of scripture is very important. But in the Book of Revelation, sometimes you need to look at the big picture because people can get caught up on the details and come up with all kinds of fanciful ideas and understanding.
Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, here's the big question: "I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals."
What is the book?
Anybody, what, what have you heard? And I'm gonna give you, just so you know, I'm gonna give you eight options as to what this [00:13:00] book is. And one of the things that I wanna kinda demonstrate tonight is these options are not that far apart. So I'm just curious what you guys have learned in the, in, in the past or whatever.
And timing doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what view of the timing because, uh, pretty much, you know, people understand this book in the same sense. Which we'll get to in just a moment here, but- Come here ... what, what have you heard before? What, what is this book? What does it contain? Judgment book. Okay, a book of judgment.
That's one option. And I should have given you some numbers to write, write things down, but, um- Covenant. Okay, the book of the covenant. Some have argued that it's the book of the covenant. Some have argued specifically that it's the book of the new covenant. Now, if it were the book of the new covenant, what would it be?
New Testament. New Testament. Okay. And we're just going over options right now. I'll narrow it down to what I think it is. What else could it possibly [00:14:00] be? A gospel Some have actually said that, the Lamb's Book of Life. Or another way of referring to the same thing, the Book of Redemption. So there are, there are those that have said that as well.
Covenant lawsuit. What's that? Covenant lawsuit. Uh, legal judicial document, sentence against Israel. That's another option. So any, any others come to mind or that you've heard or been taught or
Well, I-- judgment against Israel or judgment against the world? Okay Obviously, it would depend on how you interpret the book, whether or not you would narrow it down to Israel, Rome, or the world. I mean-- And I would argue even as a preterist, and this is where the interpretations can mix, um, I don't deny that there are principles here on how God judges nations.
Okay? And the reason I don't deny it is because we've got it throughout the Old Testament. It's not like what God [00:15:00] is doing here is radically different than how He's judged nations in the Old Testament. So He, He tends to judge nations the same way. What I don't wanna do is I don't wanna turn them into nothing but principles and lose sight of historically what's going on, because I think historically they refer to specific things as well in the Book of Revelation.
So let me rehearse the options with you. Uh, and most of these you've said, but, uh, one is the book of redemption or the lamb's book of life, okay? Um, now I've pretty much crossed that one off my list because I just-- I don't think it fits the context, but that's one option that people have said. Uh, another option that people have said is it's the title deed to the earth.
That's another option that some have thrown out there. And again, I've kinda crossed that one off my list because I don't think it fits really well. Uh, for those of you familiar with Doug Wilson and maybe like him, and I think he wrote a very good preterist [00:16:00] commentary on the Book of Revelation, okay?
It's really thin. It's amazing the detail he can fit into small chapters, but I do recommend it. I don't agree with everything he says, but I've often said if I ever wrote a book, by the time it got published, I'd hand it to someone and say, "I don't agree with everything in the author." Okay? 'Cause I'm constantly hopefully growing and changing.
And anyway, but Doug Wilson interprets it as the book of the reign of Jesus Christ. So the book of the reign of Jesus Christ. Uh, another really good commentator, and you can Google this guy online, and you can listen to an audio, he took three or four years and preached through the Book of Revelation, uh, is Phil Keiser.
I don't know if you've ever heard of Phil Keiser. He too takes a, uh, preterist view, but he sees it as the Old Testament. He sees the scroll that Jesus is opening as the Old Testament. Um, another view is, and we've, we've mentioned it, is the book of the covenant, and some people are even more specific, the book of the new [00:17:00] covenant.
Okay, that would be number five. Okay, a sixth possibility is a legal or judicial document, some type of legal or ju-judicial document, a sentence against Israel. Okay? And then another one, and this is another author that I highly recommend, again, these are all preterist writers, but, uh, is Kenneth Gentry. Ken Gentry has done a lot of work on the Book of Revelation.
He just came out with a massive two-volume commentary. His introduction is three hundred pages. Just to give you an idea. Then he gets into the commentary. Yeah.
But anyway, and I lean-- I kind of lean this way a little bit, um, but, uh, he sees it as the divorce decree against Israel. He sees the scroll as a divorce decree against Israel. And then the last one, and I think, uh, it could be, it could be more than this. It could include some of the [00:18:00] other things. But the last one, and this is the one that, uh, um, again, is very general, and yet this is the one I would say it is.
I believe it's Daniel's book found in Daniel chapter twelve, verses one through four. Daniel was given a small scroll, and it was sealed, and God basically said, "Keep it to yourself until the end of days." Daniel chapter- Dan-Dan-- Somebody wanna look that up? Daniel chapter twelve, verses one to four. Got it. At the time...
Well. Daniel twelve. Oh, is that the one they told him to eat or- Nope, that was, uh, Ezekiel. Okay. I don't think Daniel ate any book. Okay. It was Ezekiel. At that time-- You said one through four, right? Daniel chapter twelve, verses one through four. Yeah. Okay. "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been seen since there was a nation till that time.
But at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name [00:19:00] shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.
But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end." Whoa. "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." Okay. "Conceal the words and seal up the book until the end of time," is how mine does it, or the time of the end. "Many will go back and forth. Knowledge will increase."
So I would argue that whatever else this scroll is, I think this fits perfectly. Mm-hmm. Okay? Because as I've argued, and as I've tried to prove even as we went through the Book of Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews in the very second verse says we're living in the last days. Okay? Now, either the last days began with Jesus, and they've gone on for two thousand years, or it was the last days, as I interpret it, of the Old Covenant.
And I would argue that most of the [00:20:00] time those words are used both in Old and New Testament, it's referring to the Old Covenant system, the last days of Israel, the last days of the Old Covenant. Um, so I don't think-- And be-- And not only that, but remember, the writer of Hebrews says the last days. When we get to First John, he says the last hour.
So the time is shortening. It went from days to last hour even in the time of the New Testament. So I would argue that it was the timeframe leading up to seventy AD when God was going to basically take away all vestiges of the Old Covenant system. Um, so in addition to that though, i-if you think of some of these things, um, the Book of the Covenant, a legal judicial document, a divorce decree, they're really all saying the same thing.
Okay? It's basically the covenant curses being poured out on Israel. All right? Um, let me read you a passage in Leviticus 26:18. You're taking notes. Leviticus [00:21:00] 26:18. Um, and Moses is talking to the people. This is after some of the covenant curses and blessings, and he says, "Also after these things, uh, if also after these things you do not obey me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."
Now it-- To me, the Bible doesn't have coincidences. "I will punish you seven times more for your sins." How many seals are on the scroll? Seven. Okay? It's a sevenfold punishment. Okay? You can go back and read Leviticus 26 in context. It's a future judgment that the people are gonna experience. Um, so here are some other verses with some scrolls that, uh, you'll see why I think Daniel fits better.
In Ezekiel 2:9-10, Ezekiel 2:9-10: "Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me, and lo, a scroll was in it. When he spread [00:22:00] it out before me it was written on front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning, and woe." Okay? Now, what was happening during Ezekiel's ministry? When we, when we start in the Book of Ezekiel, where is Ezekiel?
Anyone remember
When we, uh, when we read the Book of Ezekiel in the early chapters, uh, chapters one, two, and three, but in chapter one specifically, where do we find Ezekiel? Where is he when God- In Babylon. He was in Babylon. Okay, the captivity had already started. But then Ezekiel has a vision, and God takes him back to Jerusalem, and Ezekiel watches God leave the temple.
So Ezekiel, in his vision, is taken back in time, and he's watching God leaving the temple, and it's this same type of throne that we see described in the Book of Revelation, okay? And it's-- he's taken back to right before the Babylonian invasion, okay? And then he's [00:23:00] given this scroll, and this scroll is described as written on front and back with lamentations, mourning, and woe.
And what do we have on the scroll in the Book of Re- Revelation? It's written front and back, and it's full of lamentation, mourning, and woe, woe. So clearly it's-- I don't think it's the same scroll, but what I'm saying is it is a judgment document. Whether you wanna get specific and say it's a divorce decree, whether you wanna say it's a covenant document, that's why I'm-- what I'm trying to say, and I, I hope I'm not being confusing, confusing.
But the differences of opinion that you find are more differences in detail, not differences in general this is what the scroll is. The scroll is clearly a scroll of judgment, okay? And it has affinities to the scroll of Ezekiel, what was-- which was opened because that judgment took place in Ezekiel's day.
Um, Isaiah twenty-nine eleven is another one. Isaiah twenty-nine eleven: [00:24:00] "The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when you give it to the one who is literate saying, 'Please read this,' he will say, 'I cannot, for it is sealed.'" So we see another instance in the Old Testament where there's a sealed book.
Okay, now I don't necessarily see this as the same scroll. Um, but then we get to Daniel four, and we see it again, and you're supposed to hold on to it until the end of days, okay? That one, to me, corresponds to what we see in the Book of Revelation because I would argue it is the end of days. It is the last days.
It is the, the, the finality of the last days because it is judgment upon Jerusalem. Questions before we move on?
All right. We'll keep going, but that's how I understand the scroll. It's got the seven seals. It's a judgment scroll. We know it's a judgment scroll because once it starts [00:25:00] getting open, judgment starts pouring out. We know it's a judgment scroll because there are affinities to Ezekiel when Jerusalem was judged.
And we know that it can-- I think we also know that it concerns Jerusalem because of the affinities with Ezekiel. Okay? Jerusalem was judged when she was taken into captivity, but she was restored because of the promises of God. She still didn't live faithful. She still rejected her Messiah. So now it's that ultimate judgment.
It's that... And I have no problem calling it the ultimate divorce or the ultimate judgment. Basically, the ultimate pouring out of the sevenfold curses of the covenant Verse two. "And I saw a strong angel, um, proclaiming with a loud voice, 'Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?'" Okay. So this is one of the reasons why I think it's the ascension of Christ.
Okay, if this is the end of time, in other words, if this is future to us, do you really think they'd [00:26:00] need to ask that question? If Jesus was in heaven for the last 2,000 years when this is taking place, is there gonna be anyone in heaven, including an angel, with any doubt as to who is worthy? But if Jesus is just ascending into heaven, to me, the question makes sense.
Are you following what I'm saying? You don't have to agree with me, but are you following what I'm saying? Okay, if Jesus isn't present in heaven, and all this is taking place, and this is Jesus coming to heaven, I could understand the angel's ignorance. Okay? But if Jesus has been in heaven for over 2,000 years, or more, because obviously He hasn't returned yet, so the futurist understanding, if this is Jesus coming to judge the world sometime in the future, that question doesn't make sense to me because the angel would already know it.
Does, does it have to be a question out of ignorance, or can it be a rhetorical question? Um, [00:27:00] even a rhetorical question I don't think would make sense in the future. But I think there is some rhetorical, maybe, nature to this. Um, but I don't think there has to be, especially if it's the ascension of Christ.
Okay? Because remember, the angels, we read in Peter and I think elsewhere, the angels were every bit as interested in how God was gonna play all this out. So the angels do not have omniscience. Okay? So if this is the ascension of Jesus, and if they're sitting there and they see Him and He's got this scroll, they may not have put it all together.
Okay? Because they're still trying to understand it according to Peter and stuff, and now they're starting to put it together. Um, so that's my view on it. Strong angel, we don't know who this angel is. Um, but it is interesting because the word used for strong angel is the same word used in, uh, Matthew 12:29.
Somebody wanna look up Matthew 12:29, and somebody [00:28:00] else wanna look up Matthew 3:11. Matthew 12:29 and Matthew 3:11.
Matthew 12:29
Yeah. "Or else how can one enter into the strong man's house and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And he will spoil his house." Okay. Who's the strong man? How do you understand this? Who- Jesus. Who is the-- Nope.
The devil? Yes Holy Ghost? Okay, and I think Becca said it as well. The strong man is Satan. Who is the one who binds the strong man? That's Jesus. So Satan is described as a strong man. This angel is described as a strong angel, okay? So the only point that I wanna [00:29:00] make is whatever Satan was, and Satan obviously was a powerful angel.
We don't know if he was a seraphim, a cherubim. We don't know what rank he falls into, but this angel is of equivalent rank and strength, is what I would argue, because the same description is used, okay? But this is where we have to be careful because scripture uses words of more than one object. So who has Matthew, uh, chapter three, verse 11?
I baptize you
As you would want it for a penance. But he who is coming after me is mightier
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire Okay, and who is John the Baptist talking about? Jesus. Clearly Jesus, and he describes him as mighter, mightier than I, which is how most translations do it. It's the exact same word, stronger than I. Okay? So just be- just because I see an equivalence between Satan and this angel here, [00:30:00] which to me makes sense because we're talking about spiritual beings, doesn't mean the word can't be used differently in different contexts.
Okay? Um. So who is worthy to open the book and break its seals? Okay, there's another, there's another contextual thing, or another don't pay attention to details. Open the book comes before break the seals, but you gotta break the seals before you can open the book. So I'm just... Pay attention to the details, but don't get so caught up on the details that you miss the overall message.
Verse three, three and four. Uh, no one in heaven. Again, if this is in the future, and if Jesus has been there two thousand years, this doesn't make sense because he's been in heaven for two thousand years. But it says, "No one in heaven, or under the earth, or on the earth, or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it."
Now, you might think, well, Jesus was on the earth. [00:31:00] No, he was ascending. Okay? So he doesn't fit any of those categories. No one in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth was able to open the book or look into it. And I began to weep greatly, to cry much, because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it.
All right? Um, that's-- I think that's, uh, fairly self-explanatory. Other than, um, I have no idea what-- why John was so emotional other than I think if any of us, even in a vision ascended into heaven and was witnessing this, we'd probably be pretty emotional, okay? Um, in addition to that, John would have known who was worthy, but I think he got caught up in the moment, he got caught up in what was going on, and it was an emotional time, and it was probably a frightening vision, and he begins to weep.
So you're saying God the Father was sitting on the throne, and the devil came up and [00:32:00] said, "Who's worthy to open the book?" No, no, no. An angel. No, it's strong-- All I'm saying is whatever that angel was, it was of the same rank and category as Satan. But that was an unfallen angel. Satan is a fallen angel So God the Father is literally there sitting on the throne and this angel asks who's worthy to open it- Yes
even though he's right there? Well, God's not- And, and Jesus- The Father's not about to open it. He's-- It's in his hands. He's holding it- Like he's holding it out to them ... they know he's not gonna open it. He's looking for somebody worthy to open it. So the angel cries out to- So- ... the throng around the- God the Father is expecting the ascension of Jesus, but the angels aren't.
They have no idea what's going on. Well- He's sitting there holding out a scroll waiting, and everyone else is like, "What is going on?" Why have this big show if he's the one that's-- that knows the hour and the time that the Son, the Man will come back and all this will happen? If he's the one that ultimately says, "I know when to give it to you.
You're coming," and then we're having this big [00:33:00] spectacle like, "Oh my goodness, what-- who's gonna open it?" Okay. Um, because- Me ... I think I am myself. Here you go. Open it up. Yeah. But that is, that's, that is not, all due respect, that is not Trinitarian thinking. Okay. Okay? One God, three persons. So it is not the Father who's going to open the, the scroll.
It is Yahweh, but not Yahweh in the person of the Father. It's Yahweh in the person of the Son. And all of this pageantry is as much for the angelic beings, the church, and John as for, and for us, as for anything else, as well as fulfilling prophecy in the Old Testament as to how it would take place. Now, I don't know why God does what he does, so I can't answer why did he do it this way.
And I mean, I could ask why do we-- We're redeemed, we're born again, sin has been taken away. Why do we still sin? Why do we go through this life and still sin? Why do we have to die? [00:34:00] Okay? Why don't, why don't we just, as soon as you accept Christ, poof, resurrection body. I mean, that would be my plan. 'Cause then everyone would do it.
Maybe. I doubt it, actually. Only the elect would still do it. But so as far as the de- I don't know why, but I would say this corresponds to prophecy. This corresponds to basically instructing people. Yeah. Okay? Because again, the angels were looking into this. How is this all gonna fall out? And now God is showing how it's gonna all fall out.
All right. Question? Yes. All right. So I think you went over this maybe one of the previous weeks, but just to circle back, you were kind of talking about the timing, right? Being not 2,000 years or even in our future now, but at more, more, uh, in line with the timing of, of where John is at as a [00:35:00] contemporary.
But if John is writing in 66 AD or somewhere thereabouts, that's still, uh, the generation past the actual ascension event. Right. So is he, is he, like, seeing a flashback? Yes. Is he- I've argued that he-- When, when he had his vision, he went back in time to 30 AD. Okay. And he's watching the ascension. Okay. And what I will argue when we get to chapter six is as the seals open, it will bring us back up to date.
Okay. So the seals-- So God is showing... Because there are other th- Remember, things don't just happen. Everything on, in the world is tied together. Ev- Synergism, okay? Which is actually the Greek word found in Romans 8:28. "For all things work together." That working together is what we get the English word synergism, okay?
So it's not just haphazard and then God pops something in there. So J- what John is going to do is he's gonna demonstrate all this, what has led up to this, how is God working this out, and how [00:36:00] is God gonna begin His judgment on Israel. So by the time we get to the last seal, we're back up to date.
Actually, I'm gonna argue by the time we get to the fourth seal, we're pretty much up to date. Okay. We're, we're back up to John's actual timetable, okay? But just, again, kind of playing devil's advocate, if you will, the- And remember, last week I said John was a preterist, and this proves it. But-
Okay. Sorry. That was rude. But, I mean, so, but part of your argument was that, well, if it'd been 2,000 years, they already would've known. But in this, in this same scenario that we're talking about, which I agree with you, I just wanna make sure that I clarify. Jesus would have been in heaven for a generation.
No. No? Because John is taken back to 30 AD. John was, his vision- Okay. I see what you're saying ... went back to the very ascension of Christ. Okay. So in John's vision, Jesus hasn't been in heaven yet. Got it. The resurrected Jesus, he's [00:37:00] ascending to heaven now. Okay. Okay? Yes, in terms of John's actual timetable, Jesus has been there almost 40 years.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. But he's taken back into time. So, um, and then the other thing that I would say, and the more I study this book, the more I'm convinced, is I believe the, that the, the majority of this book and the main thrust of the book is judgment on Jerusalem. But there is a lot of judgment on Rome along the way.
And the reason there is judgment on Rome along the way is because Rome and Jerusalem are in cahoots. Mm. So this sets up the downfall of Rome as well, okay? And there are some Preters, uh, uh, commentators and theologians and, and one of my favorite, Greg Bahnsen, uh, who would argue that the first half of the book is about the fall of Jerusalem, the second half of the book is about the fall of Rome.
Now, I think the whole thing is about the fall of Jerusalem, but there's a lot of judgment on Rome mixed in. Mm. All right. Any other [00:38:00] questions before we keep going? All right. Verse five, "And one of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping. Behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.'"
So where do we get the, the phraseol- Does anyone remember where we get the phraseology lion that is of the, of the tribe of Judah? And again, you don't have to have the exact address, but do you remember where that phraseology comes from?
It comes from Jacob blessing his sons. Okay, so we find it in Genesis 49:9 and 10. So would somebody look up Genesis 49:9 and 10? Somebody else look up Numbers 24:9, and then a third person please look up Hebrews 7:14. So Genesis 49:9 and 10, Numbers 24:9, and Hebrews 7:14. Genesis 49:9, "Judah is a [00:39:00] lion's whelp. From the prey, my son, thou art gone up.
He stooped down, he couched as a lion and as an old lion, who shall rouse him up? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh comes,
and
until-- And unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Okay. So now this is interesting because a lot of people miss this in Genesis. Um, it's, it's talking about Judah. Who was the one that offered his son for Benjamin in the story of Joseph? Do you remember? I think it was Judah, wasn't it? Judah. Okay. Um, and I don't have time to get into all the, all the de-- Who was the one, uh, that ends up having a child with his daughter-in-law because he won't give her his last son?
Is Tamar? Mm, I don't think it's Ta- [00:40:00] I can't remember if it's... 'Cause there's more than one Tamar. It's, it's Judah. It's Judah. I believe. Yes. So a lot of people think that when you read the Book of Genesis, you read this weird account. You read this-- You start reading about Joseph, and then a chapter into it, you have this weird story about Judah and what he did with his daughter-in-law and all that, and basically his sin.
And then you have this long story of Joseph, and then at the end of it, Judah's kind of the hero. And basically, believe it or not, Joseph is just a parenthesis. It's all about Judah. It's all about Judah learning his lesson and Judah offering his son a type of Christ, and the Christ was gonna come from the tribe of Judah.
And we get that picture, okay, in the Book of Genesis. And then couple chapters later, right before Jacob's gonna die, he blesses all of his sons, and he makes very clear that the scepter is not gonna depart from Judah until Shiloh comes. [00:41:00] All right? And I don't wanna spend a lot of time on that. I'll simply tell you, nobody completely understands what Shiloh means.
Okay? Some people think it's a, a, a place. Some people think it's something else. All scholars that I have read, and remember, anytime I say all scholars, it just means the people I've read. Okay? Or that I've researched. Everyone says that. "All scholars." Well, no, just the people you've read. Um, but I've read a pretty good swath.
Um, most people think it has something to do with a prophecy about Christ, that Christ is somehow Shiloh, but as far as the details, it-it's hard to work out, okay? Um, but the scepter doesn't l-leave Judah. And who is ultimately put on the throne of David? Christ. Okay, somebody read Numbers 24:9. This is speaking of Judah again.
"He bows down. He lies down as a lion, and as a lion, who shall rouse him? Blessed is he who blesses you, and cursed is he [00:42:00] who curses you." And now somebody read Hebrews 7:14.
Ah, we missed that one Hebrews 7:14
For- For it-- Oh, go ahead ... for it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests. Okay. And that's kind of interesting because he's obviously talking about Jesus, uh, being a priest after Melchizedek. Um, but the author of Hebrews makes clear too that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah.
Okay? So does Matthew, so does Luke. I mean, there's really no questioning, there's no debate. Jesus is from the tribe of Judah. So the terminology, "Stop weeping, behold the lion that is from the tribe of Judah," but here's an interesting, the root of David. Can somebody explain that [00:43:00] phraseology? What does it mean that Jesus is the root of David?
Is it the seed starting point? Okay, some-- a lot of people take that as He's the seed of David, but that's actually not what it's saying. This thing? He is the originator of David, okay? He is the seed of David. And also where in the Book of Revelation, um, listen to Revelation twenty-two sixteen. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches.
I am the root and the seed of David," Wonderful ... the bright morning star. Okay? And in Mark twelve verse thirty-seven, when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, Jesus pretty much presents this same concept. "David himself," speaking of the Messiah, "David himself calls him Lord. So in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him, is how Mark ends that [00:44:00] conversation.
So the point is, because Jesus is Yahweh, He is the root of David. He is the originator of David. He is the originator of David's kingdom. But as the human God man, He is also the seed of David, and the Book of Revelation presents both aspects. Like the alpha and the omega type of thing? Yeah. Yeah. What was that first verse?
Uh, Revelation twenty-two sixteen, and then I went to Mark twelve thirty-seven. And by being a type of Christ, it's a manifestation of the root. Yeah. I would agree. Another verse you can look up later is Isaiah eleven one. Um. Yeah, I just did that. Okay. "Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, from the root of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear."
So obviously, Jesse is the father of David, okay? So if Jesus is the root of David, then some-- in some sense, David came from Jesus because Jesus is God, the alpha and the omega. Mm-hmm. Okay? But [00:45:00] in another sense, because Jesus is the God man, Jesus came from David, and the Book of Revelation is presenting both.
Um-
Now here's another one that I would point out. "And one of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping. Behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome, so as to open the book and its seven seals.'" Okay, what does it mean that Jesus has overcome? Conquered death. Okay, conquered death.
Anything else? He defeated the devil. Got the title deed. Defeated the devil, got the title deed. Everything. Okay, good. Well- I think, I mean, is there also, like, a kingdom aspect of that too? Okay. Like a-- I mean, it's like the fulfillment of the dominion mandate, and it's the, it's the kind of coming of full circle of his kingship, right?
Okay. I, I agree with that, and he's the Messiah of Psalm two. But here's the part that
I hope blows your mind, I hope makes you think. [00:46:00] Who has overcome? That is the exact same word that Jesus commands the churches to do. It-- that Greek word, nikao, to conquer. And yet the majority mindset in the church today is we're supposed to lose. And yet when Jesus is described as the one who nikao, He won.
And He commands the churches, "You need to overcome," and then He promises them heaven. And yet the majority view today is we lose. I just don't get it. And until we change our mindset, we are going to lose And so I think, and I s- said this before, all the woes, all the ills of society is the church's fault.
When the church abdicates her position, society and culture goes straight downhill. And until we start thinking that, hey, maybe we're just supposed [00:47:00] to win. Maybe it's promised to Christ in Psalm 2 that He wins in time. Same word used here of Jesus that is commanded of the church
Verse six. On, on that note, um, you mentioned Psalm two. Um, and then was-- is it Hebrews 12, which we actually just... I think you just went over on Sunday where it-- whoever wrote Hebrews puts it in the present tense that Christ is presently seated at the right hand. I think that's something that people miss a lot because they don't take, um, that, that c- that, uh, that prophecy in Psalm two and then tie it into what the writer of Hebrews said, which is, like, you can't get past that, that Christ is presently at the right hand of the Father, [00:48:00] and that's where He's going to remain until His enemies are made His footstool.
That can't happen without the church conquering. Right. Which, which, just back to what we've talked about already, is another reason why the best view is this is His ascension. What hand is the Father holding the scroll? Right hand. In His right hand. Now, if this is two thousand years later, Jesus is already sitting there, okay?
But if it's His ascension, He's just going to the right hand. So the-- again, the question, who is worthy to open this scroll, makes sense. It does not make sense two thousand years in the future when Jesus is gonna be sitting right there. So sorry, I get excited. All right. Verse six: "And I saw between the throne," as we move along, "I saw between the throne and the elders a lamb."
And this word between... And again, I don't-- sometimes I don't know why-- I love the New American Standard, but sometimes it, it just means in the middle. Jesus, all of a [00:49:00] sudden Jesus appears, 'cause He's ascending. All of a sudden Jesus appears in the midst of where He wasn't before, okay? Chapter four opens up.
We got this throne room. You got the throne. Yahweh's sitting on the throne. You've got angels and elders and all these people around the throne worshiping God. He's holding... All of a sudden in chapter five, He's holding a scroll. Now, He's probably holding it in chapter four, but it just wasn't a point of like, I don't know, maybe they didn't see it.
Maybe they didn't notice it. Maybe He lifts His hand, and now the scroll is being held up, okay? Who's worthy? 'Cause there's nobody in heaven right now who's worthy. All of a sudden, Jesus is in the midst of it, okay? Almost like when He appeared in the midst of the apostles when they were in the upper room, scared to death, and all of a sudden He was there.
He has a resurrection body. So He ascends, and all of a sudden He's in heaven. He's in the midst of everything that's going on. And I saw in the midst of the throne and the elders a lamb standing. And I'm gonna have, uh, [00:50:00] people read their translations because the New American, New American Standard says, "As if slain."
So I know you have New American Standard brought, so you don't get to read. But, uh, Matt, if you'd read verse six. Uh, and between the throne and the four living creatures among the elders I saw a lamb standing as though it had been slain. Okay, good. That's good enough. Okay. Uh, Mike? It's the same. Okay. Yoshi, what did yours say?
And then I saw a lamb that looked like as if it had been slaughtered, and it was now standing between the throne and the four- Okay. All right. Here's what I don't get. I don't get the if, because the Greek text is very clear. I saw in the midst of the throne with the four living creatures and the elders a lamb standing, and literally the Greek text says, "Having been slain."
Okay? It's simply referring to his crucifixion. And I like Yoshi's translation because this word for slain means to slaughter, to murder. It was used of the [00:51:00] sacrifices, and it implies violence and mercilessness, which is how Jesus died. New King James uses the words as though. Yeah, I, I don't get it. It's just not in the text.
I don't understand why they add it. It's literally, uh, and it's-- Just so you understand the Greek grammar, it refers to something that happened in the past. It's called the perfect tense. It refers to something that has clearly happened in the past with continuing significance. So the text is saying he has been slain or he was slain, but he looks to be alive now.
Go ahead, Yoshi. So this means that after the crucifixion, Jesus is in heaven, he doesn't get a new body? No, he does. He gets a glorified body. However, we do read in the Gospels that you can still see the marks of the crucifixion As a lamb that has been slaughtered Stigmata. Stigmata So you would see him in all his- I, I think it's more figurative language- Okay
to [00:52:00] recognize that he is the Lamb of God, and he was slaughtered, he was crucified for the sin. I don't think he's standing there looking all bloody and everything else. Okay. Okay. Now, the Bible says that we can see the marks on the hands because Thomas put his finger in the marks on the hands- Yeah ... which I would argue is the wrist, and he also put his hand into his side.
Okay. Jesus' back was literally shredded, if you understand scourging. Does he still have those scars? Probably. I wouldn't be surprised, but he's not gonna look like a bloody mess, and he's clothed, so you wouldn't see it. It's probably more for us than it is for him. I, I think it's just the language, it's identifying who he is.
He's the lion-- Because remember, again, if you take the details too seriously... That's not a good way of saying it. If you pay too much attention to the details, he looks like a lion, now he looks like a lamb. It's describing what he did and who he is. He's not going back and forth. Lion, lamb, lion. No, it's [00:53:00] just describing who he is and what he's done in figurative language.
Okay? Just like God is my rock, okay? Nobody thinks, you know, God is just a hunk of rock sitting there and, you know. No, it's describing who he is and his strength and his power and his long-lastingness and, and all that stuff. Okay. Um, I'm prob- Can I stay with that? With the, uh, that translation of as if slain.
Mm-hmm. Is there any particular reason for that? Like, do Greek play off of the conditional- No, I don't think so. Probably, and I didn't, I didn't look this up, but, uh, different Greek tenses and verbs and constructions can have a lot of different ways that you can translate it. Mm-hmm. Okay? So there's probably a category of the perfect verb that gives an if sense, but it just doesn't make sense to me here.
I just think it's a bad translation when, when to me, the text is just very clear. Mm-hmm. Here's the lamb that was slain, and it makes more sense out of the text, it makes [00:54:00] more sense out of the context to me. Mm-hmm. So... All right. Um, last, uh, little tidbit, and then we'll go ahead and close. Uh, "I saw in the midst of the throne with the four living creatures and the elders, a lamb standing, having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth."
So obviously, the eyes are identified, but I think there's a deeper meaning as well. But how would you understand Jesus having seven horns since lambs... And again, here it goes back to if you're gonna try to parse every detail here, you got Jesus going from a lion to a lamb, seven horns. Lion to a lamb, 'cause lambs don't have seven horns.
But what's the seven horns trying to communicate? Perfection and completion Okay, the number seven, perfection, okay? But what do horns mean throughout the Bible? Strength. Strength. Power. Okay? It's speaking [00:55:00] of Jesus being perfect in power. It is speaking of His sovereignty. He is coming to, to sit on His throne.
He is being given the throne of David, Psalm 2. He is going to rule the nations with sovereignty, and His rule is gonna start by judging the old covenant people who murdered Him, who slaughtered Him, who I gotta be careful what word I use, but basically rejected the covenant, and he is going to begin by showing all of mankind, "Here is what I do to people who do not follow me.
I will wipe them off the face of the earth." We think of Jesus as surfer Jesus, love, love, love. No, Jesus is a king, and he will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Seven I's, we know those are the s- the Spirit of God, but I would also argue that what it argues for in Christ is, uh, well, a couple of things, that he is perfect in knowledge, okay?
He is omniscient. But I would also [00:56:00] argue, and this is something that the West vehemently agrees with, with orthodoxy, but the-- he exercises a certain authority over the Spirit. In the covenant of grace, not in eternity past, but when Father, Son, and Holy Spirit say, "This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna create.
Man is gonna fall. We're gonna redeem man. Spirit's gonna apply it," all that. In other words, in the Nicene Creed, when it says that the Spirit... And somebody help me, because I always forget the word. Um, anybody remember the word? The Spirit, uh, it's, uh, it's not sent. Uh, but basically in the Western, I'll use sent, but hopefully you'll remember this.
The Spirit was sent from the Father and the Son, okay? And somebody can look up the Nicene Creed if you want, because I'd rather get the wording right
'Cause this is kind of important And if I was thinking, I would have had my scene creed printed out right here. [00:57:00] And then we will close Type I can get it
Proceeded. The Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son. I knew it'd come to me. Okay. In the East, it says the Spirit proceeded from the Father, and the words "and the Son" are left out. And it's, it's a huge theological disagreement. Um, I don't know how significant it is, but it's a huge theological disagreement, and I think verses like this, because it says, um, having seven horns and seven eyes.
He owns those seven eyes, but what are the seven eyes? The seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. So I just think it's another, uh, biblical, uh, piece of evidence that would demonstrate that the Spirit does in fact proceed from the Father and the Son because Jesus does in fact, in terms of redemption, exercise a certain kind of authority, ownership over the Holy [00:58:00] Spirit.
Okay? We'll end here. Um, I could keep talking, but we won't. Uh, any questions before I have Yoshi close us in prayer? Question on the horns. Is there an Old Testament reference that signifies horns meaning strength? 'Cause when I think of horns- Daniel ... I think of like- Daniel ... the devil. Yeah. Maybe that's just like- But the funny thing is-
Western imagery ... there is absolutely no Old Testament reference saying the devil has horns. But we do think of that because- Yeah ... of the pictures we've all seen. And I don't know them off the top of my head, but yes, there are multiple Old Testament references to horns meaning strength Uh, Daniel's vision of the, the horns coming out of the beast, right?
Yeah, that's, that's one of them. Oh. A lot of times they're attributed to evil things as well- Mm-hmm ... having a certain kind of power, but they're also, uh, uh, attributed to good things as well in the Old Testament. The, there, there's something about the history of the caricature of Satan, [00:59:00] the pointy tail and the-
It, I think it's tied to that a little bit. There's a lot about hell that is more Dante than Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes. Pop culture and whatnot. Yep, yep. All right.
