Revelation 8:1-5
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[00:00:00] I'm gonna dual record it just in case this doesn't work. Yeah. Okay Matt, will you open us in prayer? Yeah, sure
Dear God and Heavenly Father, we thank you for this opportunity to come together, um, and, uh, just dig into your Word and, um, try to better understand what you have for us, uh, especially in the Book of Revelation, which some people just, uh, think of as this complicated subject. But God, we ask that you would just illuminate us tonight through your Holy Spirit.
Uh, give us, uh, ears to hear and, uh, eyes to see what you have for us. And, uh, thank you again for this opportunity, and we pray all these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. All right. So I wanted to do just a slight, uh, review [00:01:00] tonight. Um, I do this every so often. I always do a review, but I kinda wanna review the whole book, but I wanna do it very quickly.
Um, so the first question that I have for you guys, uh, 'cause we've talked about all this, what are the three main millennial views- ... that we've talked about? And, and if you can name one, can you, can you explain it in 10 words or less? You can do that actually. Yeah. So anybody. A millennial view Amillennialism Okay.
Amillennialism. So I'll, I'll just throw them out there. So there's three main views, but one of them has two schools of thought. So there's premillennialism, there's amillennialism, and there's postmillennialism. So premillennialism simply says that Jesus returns pre, prior to the millennial reign, the thousand years, okay?
That's less than 10 years or, uh, less than, uh, 10 [00:02:00] words. Okay, premillennial says Jesus returns before the thousand year reign, okay? And the two schools of thought, there's a historic premillennialism, and then there's a dispensational premillennialism. And dispen- the, the dispensational brand comes with, uh, more theology attached to the whys and all that, so...
And then there's amillennialism, and technically a means none or no. Uh, but the amillennial view basically says that the millennial reign actually takes place in heaven and not on earth. That's the a part of it. And they also see the thousand years as a figurative number. So they would see the beginning of the thousand years with the ascension of Christ and the end of the thousand years with his return, okay?
And then there's the postmillennial view, and the postmillennial view says that Jesus returns after the millennium, okay? And the postmillennial view [00:03:00] also takes the thousand years to be a figurative number, and the timeframe is the same as the amillennial view, the ascension of Christ to his second coming.
But the postmillennialist view believes that, uh, will-- that, uh, the world will progressively, in time, become more Christianized. So the millennial reign actually takes place on earth through, through the church, through the actual, the different spheres of government that we've been talking about on Sunday mornings.
Um, so that's the postmillennialist view. Any quick questions on those? 'Cause we've covered them in the past All right, so if you look at your review sheet on the very first page of your handout, I, I threw out a, a review page, and we'll just run through the first seven chapters super, super quick. Chapter One is basically an introduction, and the main thing that I would point out about the introduction is Jesus is very clear, [00:04:00] uh, He is going to, uh-- The message is-- Literally, the words in the Greek, the message is going to be signified to John.
So Jesus is using all these symbols, all these lampstands and stars and, and angels and all these things. And I've argued in the past and will continue to argue that all these symbols and signs and all this can all be found, found in the Old Testament. So if we all wanna understand what Jesus is talking about, you know- The stars, the lights, the angels, all that, we go back to the Old Testament and, and we look for those.
Where have they been used before? And so I've been trying to do that as we go through the book. Um, I've argued that the thesis of the book is found in Revelation 1:7, and I'll just read that to you: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds," which is a quotation of Daniel 7. Uh, it's also used in Matthew 26.
These are the words that Jesus speaks to the high priest. Uh, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye [00:05:00] will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the land," I think is the best translation. "All the tribes of the land will mourn over him. So it is to be. Amen." All right? And I've argued based on this passage as well as, uh, many, many, many, uh, time indicators in the book that this was a soon coming, that it doesn't fit with multiple thousands of years, okay?
It's not the second coming, and I wanna be clear 'cause I don't wanna be confused. I don't think that Jesus is talking about the second coming here. I believe in a future coming of Christ, okay, when he will bring things to their consummate end. Um, but this is a coming in judgment. And we looked at all the different passages in the Old Testament where Yahweh comes in the storm.
Yahweh comes on the clouds. Yahweh comes in the winds to judge various nations, including Jerusalem in the Old Testament. So this is a [00:06:00] judgment coming, and I believe this judgment coming took, took place in 70 AD, all right? Um, and then we're introduced to a vision of Christ, and then the seven churches are introduced.
So this-- the Book of Revelation is actually going to seven churches. We've got the individual cover letters for each church, but this book is going to the seven churches. Then in chapters two and three, we, we see the letters. So in chapter two, we get the first four letters. In chapter three, uh, we get the last three letters, so a total of seven letters.
Um, I've argued that in chapters four and five, there's a vision in heaven. John is taken up in the Spirit to heaven, so there's a scene in heaven. And I've argued that John is writing sometime in the mid-60s, 65-ish Uh, AD is when he's writing this book. And we talked about early date, late date. Um, but when John goes to heaven in this vision, uh, for a period of time, he's transported back to AD 30, [00:07:00] okay?
Because I believe that these scenes in heaven is actually the ascension of Christ, and I've, again, tried to argue for that when we looked at those chapters, that this is Jesus ascending to his throne. Um, and we come, come to find out Jesus is the only one worthy to break the seals on the scroll that God is holding.
And we've argued that the scroll is a legal document, um, divorce papers for Israel, and Jesus is the only one worthy. He's gonna open that scroll, and then judgments are gonna begin to pour out. Um, chapter six is the, uh, is the opening of the scrolls, the opening of the, uh, six seals, 'cause the seventh seal doesn't get opened until chapter eight.
Um, I've argued that they correspond to the birth pains of Matthew 24:8, all right? And then that second one, um, again, he was transported to 30 AD, but as he's opening the scroll, it brings us back to the mid-60s, okay? To the beginning of the judgment on Jerusalem. Any questions so far? [00:08:00] 'Cause again, if you've been coming or if you've been listening, again, this is just review.
So I've, uh, tried to make arguments in the past. Will you grab my water? I think it's the one with the lid on it. Thanks. Uh, chapter seven begins with an interlude, okay? There's an interlude, or there's a pause between the sixth seal and the seventh seal that's gonna get opened in chapter eight, and we see the 144,000 are being sealed.
And I argued there that I believe that it's a figurative number. It just means a great number of elect Jews, and I do think it's referring to elect Jews, all right? And we'll talk about that again tonight, actually, just a little bit. Um, but at the end of the chapter, we see the result of that. Because there's 144,000 faithful Jews, again, that's a figurative number.
It's a large number of Jews. They're faithful. They go through the tribulation. They come out the other side. As a result of that, the church grows to [00:09:00] include all peoples, nations, tongues, tribes, and everything else. So at the end of the chapter, John sees a glimpse of the future, and in seven-- chapter seven verse nine, a great multitude which no one could count from every nation, and all tribes, and peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
And that brings us to chapter eight. But before we get, uh, to chapter eight, um, one last little bit of review. Um, how many, historically, how many different views or interpretations, schools of thought of the Book of Revelation are there? Now again, there's a lot of differences within the schools, but what are the fa-- the, the four main schools of interpretation?
Anyone remember
The historical Okay, there's a historic view, and I haven't done a whole lot with the historic view, and basically what the historic view says is the Book of Revelation [00:10:00] lays out the history of the world, okay? And many people have held that view. Um, I think if I remember right, and they were in your notes earlier, I think Martin Luther may have held that view.
Um, the problem with-- the biggest problem with that view is the longer time goes on, then new interpreters stretch out, 'cause you have to stretch out, okay? And most historicists love to, you know, interpret the book right up until their time, okay? Uh, but that's the historicist view. Is the preterist, is that one of the things you're asking for, preterist view?
Yes, that would be another view. And, and partial preterist with that. Yeah, like, like I said, there are schools of thought within, okay? But the preterist interpretation is simply saying that the majority of the Book of Revelation took place in the past, okay? So I would be what's known as a partial preterist because I believe the majority of the book took place and culminated in [00:11:00] 70 AD.
However, you're all preterists, and I'll prove it to you. How many of you believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Raise your hand. Okay. How many of you believe that it was predicted in the Old Testament that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? See, you're preterists. You believe that some prophecies in scripture have already been fulfilled, okay?
So the preterist interpretation of Revelation simply takes it further than you normal preterists, okay? Um, but we're all preterists to some extent, okay? We're all futurists to some extent. We're all historicists to some extent, all right? Um, so since I threw out futurist, I'll deal with that in a minute, but we're also idealists in some respect, and those are the last two views on the Book of Revelation.
And again, uh, to refresh your memory, I've argued that throughout history, each of these different views [00:12:00] have held prominence, okay? Um, many would argue that in the early church, the preterist view held prominent-- prominence, okay? Some have argued that the, um, futurist view held prominence as well in different locations.
But again, if you study church history and you look at how the book has been interpreted, you look at millennial views, they've been-- the church has been all over the place. We live in the 21st century. What's popular today? Which view is- Dispensational. Okay, futurist view. Yeah. Futurist, premillennial view, okay?
And unfortunately, some of us think that because that's what's popular and that's what we've been taught, and you don't hear a whole lot about the other things, that that's the only view that's out there. And regardless of what view you end up holding, I think it's important to understand that the church has gone back and forth on all these different views.
So, um- The futurist view basically [00:13:00] says that the, the majority of the Book of Revelation takes place in the future. Mm-hmm. Okay? They would argue that chapters one through three took place in the past. Okay? John was on the island of Patmos. John did have a vision of Jesus Christ. John did write seven historic letters to seven churches, okay?
But beginning in chapter four, it's a look at the future, okay? Um, that would be the futurist view. And then the idealist approach, and, uh, the idealist approach is held usually by amillennialists, but the idealist approach sees the Book of Revelation divided into seven parts, and it's really easy to outline the book in seven parts.
It, it, it fits, okay? But they see the Book of Revelation divided into seven parts, and each of the seven parts gives us principles on how to live our lives, and each of the seven parts take us from the first coming to the second coming of [00:14:00] Jesus Christ. It intensifies as the book continues until we get, um, to the last seventh part, and then we've got Satan being bound and all that, that stuff, because again, it intensifies as we go.
So seven parts to the book. Each part takes us from the first coming to the second coming, but the main principle in the idealist view is the book gives us principles to live by. In other words, there's always gonna be persecution according to the idealist view, okay? There's always gonna be tribulation.
There's always going to be a back and forth between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of evil, okay? W- which seems like is what we're seeing in this book. So, um, that would be the idealist approach. Um, so all of that fits in chapter eight. So in chapter eight, we get the last seal that's opened, and when the last seal is opened, we get the trumpets, okay?
So the futurist view sees this is gonna happen sometime in the future. The preterist view [00:15:00] says, no, this already took place. Uh, the idealist view says, no, this takes place throughout history. Okay? You have war, and you have judgment, and you have nations falling, and all these things. Um, and, uh, again, I didn't really cover the historic- historicist approach 'cause it changes all the time.
All right. Uh, Revelation chapter eight. Let's go ahead and read it, and, uh, we'll start with, uh... Let's, let's really mix it up here. And we'll go counterclockwise. So we'll start with Brock, and just read two verses at a time, and down the line. "When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of [00:16:00] all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints rose before God from the hand of the angel Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and earthquake-- and an earthquake.
Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them The first sounded, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth, and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
The third [00:17:00] angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of the water The star is named Wormwood, and a third of
Then I looked and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth at the blast of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow." Okay. All right. Anyone notice anything about the trumpets that correspond to the seals? Just did [00:18:00] anything jump out at you or did
Okay. Basically, if you remember the seals, you had the first four, and there was kind of a separation between the first four and the last three. The first four were horsemen, and then you have the last three, and they're kind of different. Well, you have the same thing in the trumpets. You have the first four, and they're kind of grouped together, and then you have these woes before the last three.
So they're kind of separate. So you have four and three kind of combination. Because of that, and I've told you this before, and this, uh, you can find this in a, a preterist view, you can find it in a futurist view as well. But because of this, some people see the seals, the thrones, and the bowls of wrath, they see them as the same thing being repeated.
So whatever happened in the seals, same thing's happening with the horns, same thing's happening with the bowls of wrath. So it's just a [00:19:00] way of retelling the story and intensifying the story. Um, I've shared with you that I don't really hold that view. Um, I don't think it's a necessarily a hill to die on, but I see them as, as following one another.
Okay? So that's why I've argued that the, the seals were the birth pangs. Okay? And then when we get to the, uh, sixth seal, there's a pause Because the elect of Israel are sealed to make sure they're gonna make it, okay? And then we finally get to the seventh seal, and we get the trumpets. All right? Um, so if you go back to verse one, we'll just start walking our way through it.
Uh, when the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour. Anybody remember what I said about the silence a while back?
I'm sorry. I have to do this. Okay. All right. Uh, it means that men go to heaven 30 minutes before women. Wow. [00:20:00] Yeah. Because there's actually silence for 30 minutes in heaven. Okay. Then the women... No. Okay. Oh, I'm horrible. Okay. So look at, uh, verse one and two. "Then the Lamb broke the seventh seal. There was silence in heaven for about a half an hour.
And I saw seven angels stand- standing before God with seven trumpets. Seven trumpets were given to them." Um, and then look at verse three. "Another angel came and stood at the altar holding a golden censer with much incense." Okay. So there's a couple of theories on why there's a half hour of silence. All right?
It might be that this scene is a reflection of the priest offering incense in the temple. Okay? When the Old Testament priest would offer incense in the temple, it was about a 30-minute time period where the priest would go in, the people would be outside, it would be very silent, and it would take the priest about 30 minutes to do his job inside, and then he would come [00:21:00] out, and then the people would begin to speak.
Okay? That was just something that took place. And if you wanna read about it, and you're very familiar with this, but Luke 1:10 and 21. Anyone just off the top of their head know what Luke chapter one-- who Luke chapter one was talking about? Um, yes. I can't remember. John the Baptist's father. Y- yes. Which was Zechariah- Zechariah
I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Zechariah. So Zechariah goes in to offer incense, and when you go back, and you can do this later, read Luke chapter one. Zechariah goes in. The people are patiently, quietly waiting outside, and then all of a sudden there's a rumbling. Why is it taking him so long? Who remembers why it was taking him so long?
'Cause God was speaking to him. 'Cause he encountered Gabriel. Mm-hmm. He encountered an angel, and the angel was predicting the birth of his son, and Zechariah thought it would be a good idea to argue with the angel. Okay. So then he comes out mute. [00:22:00] He can't talk after that 'cause the angel basically says, "Well, you're not gonna talk anymore until your son is born."
Okay? Anyone remember the first words out of his mouth when John was born? Because it's kind of significant because it shows his heart. So one of the things that the angel told him was, "You're gonna have a son." And remember, Zechariah and Elizabeth are really old, so they don't think they can have kids.
That's why the argument ensued. And the angel also told Zechariah that you're gonna name him John. And we learn later in the book that no one in their family was named John. So it would have been really odd for a Jewish family to name their child after somebody that's, you know, not a relative, okay? And, uh, when the baby was born and they brought him to be circumcised, Eli- they asked what's the baby gonna be called, and Elizabeth basically says, "John," and they start arguing with her.
That's when God looses Zechariah's lips, and the first words out of his mouth is, "His name is John." His name is John, yeah. So it shows that he learned obedience. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] That what God did to him worked. The discipline worked. But that's one theory why there might be silence in heaven. Another theory is the story of Jericho, and you can go back and you can read that in Joshua chapter 6.
But if you remember the story of Jericho, the people marched around the city for seven days, okay? And if I understand the story, 'cause I read it real quickly in terms of review, but if I understand the story correctly, for the first six days, they would blow horns while they were marching around the city.
But on day seven, they marched seven times in silence. Then they blew the horns, okay? What happened to Jericho? It was obliterated. Okay? So what we're getting ready for here is judgment, okay? And the reason I give you the two options is because we're getting ready for judgment, but the judgment is based on the prayer of God's people.
And incense was always a picture, a representation of the [00:24:00] prayers of God's people. And the Book of Revelation, I think it's in verse 3, will bring that out as well. So the silence is significant. It's significant because I think it's a repres- I think both have something to do with it. I think it's, it's significant because it's a representation of this judgment is based on the prayers of the people, uh, but it's also significant because I think there's a reflection of what happened in Jericho.
And so you see that judgment coming. Um, verse 2: I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. Another angel came and stood at the altar holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him so that he might add it to the prayers of the saints. So these are more prayers.
What prayer of the saints are we talking about here? Anyone remember? I should have written down the verse. But if you go back, I believe it was the fifth seal Was it the martyrs? [00:25:00] Yeah, the martyrs under the altar. So those are the prayers of the saints because they ask God, "How much longer do we have to wait to have our blood avenged?"
Okay? So those are the prayers of the saints, and now the angel is taking more incense and adding them, and the more incense is probably representative of the persecuted church on Earth. So they're adding even more prayers to it, and then, um, so then you might add to the prayers of the saints, the golden altar, which was before the throne.
And then the angel's gonna do something in a minute with those prayers. But anything about that angel seem odd to you? 'Cause there's a lot of controversy on who this angel is. So I'm just curious if any-- if, if anything jumps out at you or is there any reason to think that you could identify who this angel was?
I'll read the verse again. "Another angel," so this is a single angel, it's not one of the seven. "Another angel came and stood at the altar." Kind of a priestly function, wouldn't you say? "Another angel came [00:26:00] and stood at the altar holding a golden censer," holding the prayers of God's people. "And much incense was given to him," more prayers added to it, "so that he might add it to the prayers of the saints on the golden altar, which is before the throne."
And then jump to verse four. "And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel's hands. Then the angel," apparently the same angel, "took the censer, filled it with fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth, and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes and lightnings and earthquakes."
Anything jump out?
Jesus Christ maybe Okay. Yeah. Some people think the angel here is Christ. Okay? Now, you might think, "Well, how could you identify Christ with an angel?" Who remembers the answer to that question What does angel mean? Messenger. Messenger. [00:27:00] Angel simply means messenger. Who else was called angels in this book?
Pastors. Pastors of the seven churches. Okay, so you can-- No. You can genuflect- Angel Mike ... to your angel. Angel. No. Um, so yeah. Why? Because it's just the root meaning of angel is messenger. So it's really a bad translation. You know, I think when you're first translating the book, angel makes a lot of sense, but then as you're studying the book, and Jesus himself says, "The angels are the pastor to the seven churches," then we probably should change our translation to simply the messengers, because that's what the word means.
Is the word always the same? Yeah, it's always in the Greek, angelos. I mean, in this book, it's always the same- Yes. Yeah. Okay. It's always the same. So you have to discern- You have to discern what, what it is. Now, um, this is why some people think the angel is Christ, and I kind of tried to walk you through it.
I personally don't think it is, [00:28:00] okay? My own view is it's not Christ, okay? Because, uh, I think that throughout the book, for the most part, John makes a clear distinction, distinction between what angels do and what Christ is doing. Uh, but again, not a hill to die on. Um, if you think that this angel's Christ, again, this messenger is Christ, what's another name for Christ?
Savior. Messiah. Savior. Think John chapter one. John wrote this book. What's the opening words of John chapter one? Ernie. The Word. The Word. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Yeah. Okay? So he is the Word of God. He is the ultimate messenger of God the Father.
Mm-hmm. So to refer to Jesus as a messenger is not weird, which is why I'm saying if, if, if you think that, yeah, I think maybe this messenger is Jesus. Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't it also sort of make sense in [00:29:00] line with the high priest function that's being illustrated here? Ex- exactly, yes. So- That's, that's the primary argument.
Who offers our prayers to God? Our high priest. Who is our high, high priest? Jesus. What do we have Jesus doing here? Offering-- Or what do we have this angel doing here? Offering prayers to God. Okay, not only that, but this angel answers the prayer, theoretically. He offers-- This angel offers the prayer to God, and then he turns around and he takes the censer and he throws it, and judgment begins, which is an answer to prayer, okay?
So I think it's a pretty good argument that some people hold that this messenger is Jesus, all right? Um- I would simply say that, again, I think-- And this is not a hill to die on, so if you think I'm wrong here, I can live with it. Uh, but I think the book makes a good distinction between Jesus and angels, and typically when it's [00:30:00] referring to Jesus, he's either referred to as Jesus or the King or the Lamb or the Lion.
Um, in addition to that, God uses angels to answer his prayers-- to answer prayers all the time. Angels are servants. They're the winds of God, and they do his bidding. And so God sends angels to answer prayers all the time. So again, you can decide. I just wanted to offer both views to you. Um, maybe it's Jesus, maybe it's- What about Jesus in the Old Testament?
Isn't he referred to as- The angel of Yahweh ... the angel of God? The messenger of Yahweh, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there really is a str-- I think a strong, a compelling argument to see this angel as Jesus. I, I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but there's a compelling argument. So- So why do you think it's not?
Okay. Again, because I think the book distinguishes when Jesus is doing something versus his angels are doing something. Okay? Um, this-- In my opinion, this would be [00:31:00] one of maybe two places in the entire book where Jesus is referred to as an angel, which to me is just odd. W-when we have all kinds of angelic activity, both good angels and evil fallen angels, and we have a lot of activity of Jesus, and 99.9% of the time they let you know it's Jesus.
They let you know it's Christ. They let you know it's the Lamb or the Lion. So, um, and, and then my second argument for why I'm not convinced is because God uses angelic beings to answer prayers all the time. Is there anything to that it's the Lamb that opened the seventh seal? Well, that would be another argument that some would make, that he's-- Jesus has opened the seals, so now the scroll is open, so now he's unrolling the scroll, and these judgments are beginning.
So Jesus is already functioning and doing something. Again, there's comebacks to that argument, but- What is that? What would that be? That Jesus is omnipresent. [00:32:00] That he's omnipotent. He can do more than one thing at once. So that would be the, the response to something like that. At the beginning of verse three, and this is the ESV, it says, after, after verse one says, "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal," so it's referring to Christ there.
What-- Okay, what chapter are you reading from? Um, eight. Okay. Verse three. But it's in the ESV. So I'm curious about what, uh, what other translations say in- He says, "And another angel came." Um, yeah, I would argue that another angel is because they mention seven angels in verse two. So they mention seven angels in verse two, and then in verse three, it's not one of the seven, so it's another angel.
But again, back to what Rhoda said, is in, in chapter-- in verse one, Jesus is clearly referred to as the lamb, which is what he's been referred to earlier. So it just seems to me a really odd change of titles when the [00:33:00] angel functioning in verse three, yes, he's, he, he's kind of functioning in a priestly role, um, but if it was Jesus, why not just call him the high priest or something along those lines?
So again... Go ahead. Well, the angel taking the censer and, like, this violent action that causes thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake, to me, that sounds like the creator of all things, you know, like, that kind of power. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. This is like- It's almost like it's, there's authority there.
Mm-hmm. Like it's, it's an authoritative position. Right. I, I don't know. I don't even wanna keep- Like stilling- ... hung up on this one thing. Stilling the sea. But you started it, just so you know, so. And I, I started it on purpose- Yeah ... 'cause I want you to think through the book. And, uh, the-- Isn't it an earthquake when the veil is torn in two?
Yes. In- Mm-hmm. There's an earthquake, and I think this-- it gets dark too, but I mean, there's an earthquake event that is, you know, like, [00:34:00] as-- that's as big of a, a thing that can happen on the earth. Right. Right. That it just, it just has that sense of there's just the power. Yeah. It's not, like, a delegated kind of power.
This is like- Yeah. Yeah ... the source. I don't know. That's why I was asking what's happening grammatically there in verse three where it says, "And-"
I, I would say again, grammatically it's just distinguishing this eighth angel from the seven who are handed trumpets. Got it. Okay? Or this eighth messenger from the seven. And I don't want to confuse anybody. Okay. Um, what I want to do is I want to be honest with the text, and I want to be honest with the fact that while I feel very, very comfortable with the general overall interpretation of this book, some of the details are still hard to figure out, and there are good people who disagree on the details.
And so the two interpretations are this is an eighth [00:35:00] spiritual being, what we would call an angel, and it's a mighty angel. The angel's not named. We don't know who he is, okay? Um, but he is serving God, and God is using him to bring about judgment, okay? Um, and then another view is this should be translated messenger, and it's referring to the Word of God or our High Priest So I'm not throwing those things out to confuse you.
I'm throwing those things out so that you can think it through and you can come to your own conclusion instead of just-- I don't wanna just feed you what I think all the time, okay? This book is rich enough that I can share, you know, some differences of opinion, and you, you all need to work through it. So question.
I had, uh... So I know in Revelation, I think it's 4 or 5, where it talks about the white horse, and people take that to represent Christ. Mm-hmm. The same image is then drawn in [00:36:00] Revelation 19, and I know you don't take the first to be Christ- Mm-hmm ... but do you take the second to be Christ as well, or not to be Christ at all?
Read the, the verses. In Revelation 19- I believe I do, but I just wanna confirm, so I want you to read the passage first. Uh, it says: "And I saw heaven open, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written on him which no one expe- except himself.
He's clothed with a r- with a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God." Yeah. I, I think, I think it's almost impossible not to take that as Jesus, but you have all those extra descriptions that make it clear. Mm-hmm. And what I argued for on the white horse, the first seal, is it's a, it's a false Christ.
Because, again, if you see that first horseman as Jesus, then it kinda splits up the four. Mm-hmm. And what I've argued for, and I think what the text argues [00:37:00] for, is that the four are in unit. Mm-hmm. So if the last three are evil spirits, then most likely the first one's an evil spirit. Mm-hmm. Especially when you take it back and you look at Ezekiel and Zechariah and how they, they use that same analogy and picture.
They're the same kind of beings. Mm-hmm. So-- But again, if, if you think, you know, the, the-- A lot of good people, I mean, one of my heroes, Greg Bahnsen, thinks that first horseman is Jesus. And so
It's not a hill to die on. But again, that's another one where there's more than one interpretation, and good men hold different views. So again, I wanna share some of that stuff when we get to it. One more thing. Yeah. Uh, he made a really good point earlier about, like, having authority from heaven raining down fire.
And I think, if I'm not mistaken, it's Sodom and Gomorrah where the angel of heaven rains down- Mm-hmm ... fire from earth from God. And I don't know, it kind of seems like [00:38:00] that same, almost like that same- I'd have to go back and read it because, uh, um, I don't know if it's the angel of the Lord doing that or if it's the two angels that stayed.
Mm-hmm. So I'd, I'd wanna go back and double-check, but- Yeah ... uh, you may have a point. There's also-- And I was just looking at that passage. But see, I've made you all think. Fair. There- My purpose. There's also the section where, um, the Lord, in chapter 18 of Genesis, the Lord comes to Abraham to tell him that Sarah will bear him a son.
Mm-hmm. And He comes-- He specifically is called the Lord, but it's three men, and it doesn't say which one is the Lord or what all those three men are. Right. But then that story progresses to Sodom and Gomorrah, and we're left with just the two angels. Okay. And from that point forward, ne- they're not referred to as the angel of the Lord or Yahweh.
Mm. So I think it's a safe [00:39:00] assumption based on the context that the angel of Yahweh departed, but the other two angels were the ones that went into Sodom and Gomorrah. So the angel of the Lord departed. Yeah. So was that the Lord? I, I think it was- He calls Him the Lord. I think it was pre-incarnate Christ, yes.
Right. I think that 99% of the time that you see the expression angel of Yahweh in the Old Testament, it's the pre-incarnate Christ. Okay. Literally messenger of Yahweh, Word of God. Okay. Okay? And nine times out of 10, when you see that expression, the angel of Yahweh says da-da-da-da, another verse, "And Yahweh said," and it's the same angel talking.
So he's often simply referred to as Yahweh or God, so All right, verse four. This is why we, we're not getting far, but this is good. This is real good. Okay, verse four, "And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints," and if you wanna make a reference, Revelation [00:40:00] 6:9-11, that was the saints under the altar.
I did write it down. Uh, "The prayers of the saints went up before God, um, and out of the angel's hands." Um- Yeah. "Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire of the altar and threw it to the earth, and there followed peals of thunder, sounds and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." Okay? Um, couple things in this verse.
He threw it to the earth, okay? And then there were peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and earthquake. Does that description remind you of anything?
Can you think of anything in the Old Testament where, uh, there were-- there, there were peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and- Wasn't that when Moses went up on the mountain? Okay. Exodus 19, when Moses brings the people to Mount Sinai. All right? And these trumpets, and I'll try to demonstrate this as we go, these trumpets are reminiscent of the plagues on Egypt, all right?
[00:41:00] Only it's almost in reverse order because it begins with the flashes of lightning and everything else there at Mount Sinai, but then we start backing up as we see some of these other plagues. And what I, what I would argue-- And again, the Bible, there are no coincidences in the Bible, and you see this all the time.
What John is trying to communicate is the, the Israel of the first century who rejected their Messiah, crucified Him, and then continued to offer blasphemous sacrifices, okay? They had become so evil by this time that now they're Egypt. What did Egypt do to Israel? Egypt persecuted Israel. What is first century Judaism doing to the church?
They're persecuting the church. So we see a backwards motion. Now Israel has become Egypt, and Egypt is persecuting the people of God, just like in the Old Testament. Later in the book, [00:42:00] he's gonna specifically identify Israel as Babylon And Babylon is persecuting and wicked and evil and all these things.
So we see a reversal in this judgment of God. But yeah, Exodus 19:16-17, you might wanna write them down. "So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound." Hmm, trumpet sound. "And all the people in the camp trembled.
And Moses brought the people of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain." So we're gonna see more and more reminiscence of, uh, uh, the Exodus, okay? Only it's like a reversal because now Israel is Egypt. Uh, the other thing that I would point out is the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and threw it to the earth.
Okay? And I've argued before that in the Book of Revelation, you have to be careful because the same Greek [00:43:00] word, and this is true in Hebrew as well, can be translated earth or land. Okay? But it's very interesting here because the first trumpet affects the earth, the second trumpet affects the sea. And throughout the, uh, Old Testament, the land is always a reference to Israel.
The sea is always a reference to Gentile nations. Okay, give you another example. Um, uh, there was a-- there were two beasts. There was a beast that came up out of the sea, and when we, we get there, we'll see clearly Rome, described as Rome. But then there's also a land beast, and I'm gonna argue when we get there that the land beast was the high priest of Israel, the, the current high priest that was leading the blasphemous worship and persecution of the church, okay?
And by the time we get to the late 60s AD and 70 AD, the high priest [00:44:00] was basically ruling Israel, okay? Because they didn't have a king anymore, they didn't have a governor, they were still under Roman authority, and it was the high priest that came to the ultimate power of authority in Jerusalem at that time, okay?
So I'm gonna argue when we get there that the land beast is the high priest. The sea beast, and the sea beast is gonna be clearly identified 'cause that's where you get the six six six and everything else, is Rome. So here, I think that, uh, the first th- Judgment is upon the land of Israel. Okay? It's not specific.
It just-- it, it affects the land. You have this earthquake, you have these lightnings, all this other stuff, um, but then keep going. The second one, uh, hold on one second. Yeah, I think the lamb refers to Israel. Now we get to the first trumpet, so in eight:six. Uh, "And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to [00:45:00] sound, sound them.
The first sounded, and there came hail, fire mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth." Again, the land. Thrown to the land. "And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all of the green grass was burned up." Okay? Um, Exodus chapter nine, verse eighteen. Back to the Exodus.
"Behold, about this time tomorrow I will send a very heavy hail so as has not been seen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now." And then same chapter, Exodus chapter nine verses twenty-four and twenty-five: "So there was hail and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very severe, such as has not been seen in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
The hail struck all that was in the field through the land of Egypt, both man and beast. The hail also struck every plant of the field and shattered every tree of the field." So [00:46:00] this hail struck the earth, it produced fire, and it killed both man and beast in the Exodus. Okay, now you see the same thing.
Hail and fire mixed with blood. People were dying. And they were thrown to the earth or the land. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and a third of the green grass was burned up. Now, my own view is that, uh, a third simply means that this is the beginning of judgment.
Okay? It's not the completion of judgment So judgment isn't finished, it's just the beginning. It's a, a, a portion of judgment is taking place here. There are other, uh, uh, preterists as well as futurists that wanna make a very clear identification that literally a third of everyone died, okay? I don't think that's what John is getting at.
I think he's just-- Because again, the way numbers are used in this book, I think [00:47:00] he's just-- this isn't complete judgment, okay? And in order to help you understand that, I kinda wanted to walk you through, real briefly, the Roman-- the Jewish-Roman War and kind of what took place. So if you want more notes, I can, I can send this out or something.
But, uh, the war began with Israel, okay? Israel, uh, actually, uh, stormed the garrison in Jerusalem and overtook the garrison and caused the Romans to flee, okay? So they kinda started the, the conflict, and in short-- This happened in about AD 66, okay? So they started the conflict by basically taking over the garrison and making it known, "We don't want you in our city anymore," and the Romans fled, okay?
In addition to that, and some of you, uh, remember this story, but the story of M-Masada, it was a, uh, mountain fortress. The same year, they took over Masada. So they're the ones that threw the g-gauntlet down, [00:48:00] all right? Then Rome responds in AD 67, and the original general is a man by the name of Vespasian, and he came, and he attacked Jerusalem, okay?
And he started the sie-siege on Jerusalem. Jerusalem was surrounded. They were being attacked. The Romans would've defeated them, would've come into the city, but lo and behold, something happens. There's a pause in the action, okay? Uh, Nero died. And when Nero died, Vespasian was in line to be emperor. So he stops fighting, okay?
And there's a lot more detail to this, but he stops fighting because he wants to beat feet back to Rome, 'cause he wants the crown, okay? So there's a pause in the action. Um, will somebody turn to Luke chapter 21, and somebody else turn to Matthew chapter 24
Luke chapter [00:49:00] 21, and you're gonna find verse 20. Who's, who's got that one? Luke 21:20. Who wants to take it? I have Matthew. You have Matthew? Okay, that's fine. Matthew 24, you're gonna start in verse 15, but not yet And let me know whoever wants to read the Luke 21 Luke 21:20? Yep. Starting in Luke 21:20. So what I want you to do is read Luke 21 verses 20 through 24, and everyone really listen to what's being said here.
I might even have you read it twice. Okay. So Luke 21 verses 20 to 24. And this is Jesus talking. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are at Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it.
For these are the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written. Alas, for women who are pregnant and for those who are [00:50:00] nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
All right. That's 24? Yeah. Okay. Read verse 20 one more time.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near." Keep going. "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." All right. That's good. So surrounded by armies
How do you get past an army? 'Cause surrounded by armies, but let those flee to the mountains. Okay? Now, we'll come back to that. Matthew 24, start at verse 15. "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, [00:51:00] standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, then let these-- let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house. And let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Continue? Nope, that's good. Was that verse 21? 22. 22, okay. [00:52:00] Now, reread, just so everyone that's in their memory, reread verses 15 and 16. "So when you see the desolate-- the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Okay. So Luke and Matthew are telling the same story. Okay, go back later this week or tonight or whatever, go back and read Luke 21. Look at the chapters leading up to Luke 21. Go back and read Matthew 24. Look at the chapters leading up to Matthew 24. They're telling the exact same story, okay? But what's the difference between Luke and Matthew?
Nope. I, I'm-- Okay, I mean in general, what's different about the man Matthew and the man Luke? Anybody remember? Matthew's a tax collector, Luke's a physician. Okay, that's one [00:53:00] thing. So is a Jew and a- Okay. Matthew is a Jew. Most people believe that Luke was a Gentile. All right? And when you read Luke's gospel, multiple times throughout the gospel, Luke takes time to explain things that Gentiles wouldn't understand.
Understand. So Matthew says, "When you see the abomination of desolation," Daniel talked about this, but then he throws something in, "Let the reader understand." In other words, it's gonna take some thought here. But when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, okay? Now again, when you translate that and you look at the original, the holy place often refers to Jerusalem.
So when you see the desolation, and literally what the word means, the desolation that's gonna bring about abomination, or the abomination that's gonna bring about desolation, destruction, standing in the holy place, standing in Jerusalem, flee. Again, how are you [00:54:00] gonna get past it? Luke helps us. He translates it for us.
When you see the Roman army surrounding the city, flee, and everything else is the same. Flee, don't go back, run away. Okay, well, what happened? Vespasian stopped the attack. He goes back to Rome, and in the meantime, and we know this historically, the Christians that were left in the city, they would've been Christian Jews, fled, and they got out of Dodge.
I mean, we, we have evidence and outside writings not in scripture. This happened. There was a pause in the action. They left. Okay? Um, then Vespasian's son, Titus, takes over the siege, and Jerusalem is finally destroyed in 70 AD. But there was a pause in the action. Vespasian didn't become [00:55:00] emperor, did he?
Yeah, he did. He did. He eventually became emperor. Because I thought it was like Herod Antipas that was the one that destroyed the temple, or wasn't it? No. Who is the abomination? Is that Vespasian? No. I, I would argue that the abomination of desolation was Vespasian. It was- As an emperor ... the Roman army surrounding the temple.
As the emperor, yeah. No, it was when he was general. So when, when Vespasian and the Roman army surrounded the holy city, okay, they-- he, he was referred to, and again, you can go back and read Daniel and really look at what happens there. But he was the abomination because they were Gentiles at the holy city, okay?
Uh, the abomination that causes desolation. He was the abomination that was about to bring destruction. All right? Now, why do I think that? Because I think if, again, you compare it, Luke tells us [00:56:00] that. Instead of using the abomination of desolation, Luke writing to Gentiles translates for us. When you see the armies surrounding Jerusalem, Jerusalem is the holy place, okay?
It's the holy city. All right? These armies are abrou- about to bring destruction and desolation. So when you see this And Jesus doesn't completely explain himself, so I'm sure the people were scratching their heads. But when you see the city surrounded, flee, and you're probably thinking, "Well, how do I get past the army?"
Well, what Jesus didn't tell them was there was gonna be a pause in the action. You had to trust him. When you see the army surrounding, there's gonna be a time when you can flee. Take advantage of that time and get out of Dodge. Okay? And what I think is taking place here when you start putting to- together, and we'll, we'll end with this 'cause I don't wanna go any longer, um, is the trumpets are the beginning of judgment.
They're the beginning of Vespasian [00:57:00] coming against the city, and then again, there's a letup in the action. The 144,000 sealed, the elect of Israel, flee and get out of Dodge, and then comes the bowls, the final destruction that takes place in 70 AD. So that's how I understand this all to, to fit together, and that's why I don't think it's a recapitulation, but I think there's a progress in what's taking place.
But you gotta-- You, you have to let scripture interpret scripture. So before I end us in prayer, any questions? And you can also ask me questions after we pray. I have a question. Okay. Uh, verse five- Of? Uh, chapter eight- Okay ... of Revelation, it's talking about how this angel came and threw, um, and threw down the censer that was filled with fire to the earth.
And I know that we [00:58:00] talked about this, these prayers being the prayers of the martyrs, but do you think there's an application for daily prayer in showing kind of the significance and power of the prayer of just God's ordinary elect people? Absolutely. I, I think this is an illustration of what prayer can do.
Okay? Be-- And not only what prayer can do, but, um, I'm trying to think of the right word, um- There's another word and I can't think of it, but ongoing prayer. Persistent, that's the word I'm thinking. Mm. Persistent prayer. Kinda like the parable of the widow who's bugging the judge, and the judge is ignoring her, but she keeps bugging the judge and the judge-- Finally, she gets her way.
She gets what she wants, which is a parable about persistent prayer. And here we have the martyrs under the altar, so they're even continuing to pray in heaven, and God says, "Be patient, I'm not done yet." Which also shows something of the patience of God, all right? Um, but so yes, I would say that we can learn a lesson about [00:59:00] prayer and persistent prayer from these things, and the power of prayer
Anything else?
I always feel like there's a lot, but all right. You can ask questions later if you want. Let's pray. Father in heaven, thank you so much for this book. Thank you that it's actually really fun to look at this book. Um, I know there's a lot of disagreement, uh, even among the same schools of thought. Um, and Father, I pray that you would use that to keep us humble, um, and that we would let your Word teach us, and that we would go to the scriptures, and we would do just that, that we would allow scripture to interpret scripture, that we would look for the meaning of all this symbolism, all these signs, and all these things.
We'd go back to the Old Testament, and we'd look for these things. We would see the parallels between the Exodus and Egypt and this tribulation and just... Father, this book, more than any other, I think, brings all of scripture together. It, it demonstrates how we have to have an [01:00:00] understanding of all of scripture.
So Lord, thank you for it, and may we continue to work our way through it. And Father, I pray that we will continue to have fun as we work our way through it. Uh, Spirit of God, continue to teach us. For we ask all this in Christ's name, amen. Amen.
