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[00:00:00] One. And then there's a new one there on the timeline for the Jewish War. Um, so we're on chapter eight. Um, but as we get going, I did, I did have a question, and I, I want you to give me an honest answer. So, 'cause it doesn't matter to me what, what the answer is. I can go either way. Um, but when I first, uh, thought about doing this study and I was gonna do it, um, I was planning to go a little bit quicker than I'm going.
I was planning to just kinda jump in and basically lay out what I think the chapter means or whatever. Um, but we've gone a little bit slower. We've gotten into a little more detail, which is totally fine with me, but I'm just curious, what would you rather do? Do you like the pace that we're going? Would you rather speed it up?
Uh, keep doing it the way we're doing? Um, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. Um, Douglas, Doug Wilson's, uh, commentary on [00:01:00] Revelation, The Man Comes Around, based on a Johnny Cash song. Um, he can get so much in in such short chapters, but it's because it's not a critical commentary. He's not going out of his way to, to try to demonstrate what he says.
He does it for some of the stuff, but other things he just says, "This is what it means," and, but he doesn't really try to demonstrate it. Uh- I will come out ... where I've tried to do a little more demonstration. Um- I will come for you ... so both ways of doing it are good. So anyway, I just, I wanted to get some feedback to what you guys think.
I will come out. What, what would you prefer? She will come out. I like the slower pace just 'cause I think it's so dense that, I mean, we could spend, like, weeks just on one chapter 'cause there's so much. But I know every, it's different for everybody. But yeah, I appreciate it. Hey, but you get a vote when you come.
You don't come, you don't get a vote. Yeah, true.
I think I'm the same way. I think [00:02:00] I wouldn't really have wished to not get all the details that we've gotten so far, and, uh, I feel like it's been very- All right. Well, then- Helpful in kinda understanding
Say it the same. I think you could read the book
Okay. And, and again, that's fine with me. Um, we can keep doing it this way. I think what I'm going to do, 'cause, uh, I'll give you the dates later, but, uh, I think the next Bible study is, like, the week we get back. And we've heard that jet lag coming back's pretty bad, so we're probably not gonna have it then.
Um, so I'm probably gonna cancel it. Um, so I'm thinking, like, the next one we have is it will be a pretty in-depth review. But I'm gonna let people know that, you know, if they want to s- 'cause I know a couple people that would want to come to Bible study, but they don't necessarily want to jump in the [00:03:00] middle of it.
But either jump in the middle of it, or you're gonna-- it's gonna be a long time before you end up coming. So, um, I might just do a really thorough review, uh, when we get back. So I am gonna do my best to finish, uh, chapter eight today. So, uh, um, let's go ahead and re- reread chapter eight. We, we've looked at some of it.
But, uh, um... And then since we don't have as many people, why don't you read four verses each. Mike, we'll start with you, and then we'll just go around the table and read four verses and-
Then I saw the seven angels And seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. [00:04:00] And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and threw it to the earth, and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake. And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them. The first sounded, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth, and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea
And a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch. It fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of the waters. The name of the star is called Wormwood, and a third of the waters became wormwood.
And many men [00:05:00] died from the waters because they were made bitter. The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it and the night in the same way. And I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining blast of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound."
Okay. Um, so if you want to look at that, uh, handout timeline of the Jewish Wars, um, and I'm only reviewing this again because I want to go back to something that we've talked about. Um, but if you look at it, uh, approximately AD 66 to 67, that's kind of when the, the, the war begins. And, uh, just to be clear, uh, the Jews started it.
Okay? It's not like the Romans... I mean, there was big [00:06:00] tension between the Jews and the Romans. The Romans did not like the Jews because the Romans afforded the Jews way more privileges than they did most conquered nations. Um, most conquered nations were required to worship Caesar and, and do those things, but they allowed the Jews some, some leeway in those things.
Um, so there was tension building, uh, but the Jews actually attacked first. Um, they captured Masada. Um, I know the, the, the big battle of Masada and everything happens after 70 AD, but the Jews actually captured it sometime in 66 to 70, so 67 AD. And then in parentheses, uh, oh, I didn't cite his name. I forget the name of the, uh, commander before Vespasian.
Um, Cestius, something like that. But, uh, he actually came to Jerusalem to put down the revolt and Got whooped bad by the Jews. And not only did he get whooped, [00:07:00] but they chased him out of Dodge and killed a lot of his troops. Uh, I for- it was, like, over a couple thousand, uh, footmen and, uh, 300 plus horsemen, which was a big deal.
So that kind of emboldened the Jews to keep going. Uh, Nero actually got really mad. He got, he got mad at... I think, again, I think his name was Cestius. But, uh, he got mad and basically, uh, appointed Vespasian and his son Titus to go back and lead the battle. So, so in 67 to 68, uh, AD, Galilee falls. Obviously, uh, they're coming from Rome, so they're coming south to Jerusalem.
Galilee is north of Jerusalem, so they start conquering key cities on their way down. Um, and that's important because, um, of what I'm gonna get to here in just a second in terms of the seals and the trumpets and all that stuff. So but they start conquering from the north, they're [00:08:00] heading south. In 68 to 69 AD, and this is extremely important, uh, Nero dies.
Um, but because Nero died, uh, there was basically a cessation of hostilities because Vespasian wanted to be emperor, and he was waiting to find out what was going, what was gonna happen. And we'll get to it in the Book of Revelation, but between Nero and Vespasian, there were three emperors that ruled in a one-year period.
I forget, I think one was murdered, a couple other things happened. But so Rome was in an uproar, but do you remember what happened during that time of cessation?
Someone dies Well, Nero dies, so Vespasian stops fighting because he's waiting to see who's gonna be emperor, and he kind of wants to be emperor. And then there's, there's three emperors, uh, Galba, Otho, and I can't remember the third guy, and they all, like, none of [00:09:00] them reign more than, like, three months. And then finally, um, and this was common in Rome, Vespasian's troops, and he had the biggest army at the time, elected him emperor.
So then he goes back, and he becomes emperor, and he actually remained emperor for quite a while, and then Titus was put in charge of the siege of Jerusalem. And Titus actually becomes the next emperor after his father dies. Um, but what happened is, remember Jesus' prediction? You'll see the city surrounded, and when you see that flee.
Well, Vespasian made it to Jerusalem after he conquered Galilee, came down south, made it to Jerusalem, surrounded the city, had siege, siege works in place, things like that. Nero dies, everything ceases, and the Christians in, uh, Jerusalem were able to escape. Um, I think they went to Pella. I always get it confused with Pella and Petra, but I believe they went to Pella, and, uh, they escaped.
Um, so then in [00:10:00] 70 AD, um Well, sometime in 69, Vespasian, uh, returns to Rome. Titus takes over. In 70 AD, the war resumes. Uh, Jerusalem falls, and the temple's burnt. We actually know the date. It's the ninth of Av, which is spelled A-V or A-B, uh, which is our late August. Okay? And then there's actually more fighting after 70 AD.
Masada doesn't fall until, I think, like, 72, 73 AD. Um, and that's, like, the final defeat of the Jews. Okay? But the, all the Old Testament, all the old covenant vestiges were done away with by 70 AD. And the reason I bring that up is because I don't like to be too precise in terms of chronology, because I just think it's really hard.
But, uh, in early 66 to 60... Actually, from 30 to about 67 AD, I've argued that's when the seals were taking place, okay? And I've argued that it corresponds to Jesus's, [00:11:00] uh, pronouncement in Matthew 24 that these are the birth pangs. Okay? And then around 67 to 68, when Galilee falls, that is where I would put the trumpets.
Okay? I'd, I'd put the trumpets right around that spot, and then there's a pause. And, uh, so the 144,000 are sealed, and they get out of Dodge. Um, and then, um, basically 69, 70 AD, when Titus takes over and he actually conquers Jerusalem, that's where I'd put the bowls of wrath. Okay? Loosely, 'cause I think there's some overlap.
Okay? But the reason I bring this up is, is I went back and I, I reread through, like, chapter 14 today in, in Revelation, and it really makes sense to me why a lot of people see the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls as covering the same material. Because you look at the trumpets and the, the bowls of wrath, and they are [00:12:00] very similar.
Very similar in terms of what's happening. I mean, almost... I wouldn't say identical, but, you know, the first, uh, trumpet really does correspond to f- the first bowl, second to this, all those things. But what I would argue, and one of the things that I've been doing lately is I've been reading through Josephus and really trying to get the details of the Jewish war down.
And I would say that like things happened in all these periods, okay? Similar famine took place in all three periods. Men were killed in all three periods. I think there's more going on in the book of Revelation because of the symbology and stuff like that. But I also think that there was an intensification.
You have the birth pains, you have Vespasian coming, he's conquering everything but Jerusalem. Then there's a pause. Again, I think the 144,000 that were sealed get out of Dodge, and then more things start to happen. So, [00:13:00] and as you read the book of Revelation, the other thing that I see between the trumpets or the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls is there seems to be an intensification in the book itself.
So it seems to me if it's covering the same material, I'm not sure why they keep intensifying it. So I think it's covering different time periods, all right? That's not a hill that I'm going to die on. If I find out that I'm wrong or somebody convinces me otherwise, or if you guys think otherwise, I think that's a fine interpretation.
I just think, again, as you read Josephus and you read what happens at the different stages of the war, a lot of like things happen, okay? So I was going to read you one thing. And if you look at chapter 8, verse 8, this is the second angel in verse 8. And we'll back up in a minute. We'll cover all the trumpets real quick.
But the second angel sounded and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. And a [00:14:00] third of the sea became blood. And a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life died and a third of the ships were destroyed, okay? So some commentators, and I'll give you the name of one because you can actually get him online and he's got an entire series on the book of Revelation.
And I think he does an outstanding job. But Philip Kaiser, I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but like I said, he's done a really good job. But he does his best to date everything precisely and to find something, you know, that corresponds, something in Josephus or that corresponds. I'm not convinced it was a real mountain that was cast into the sea, okay?
I think, again, it was figurative. It was a rock. Figurative, it was from heaven. It caused damage. You see these things. Our God is a rock. What does Jesus say? Take this faith. Tell this mountain to get up and cast it into the sea. I mean, I [00:15:00] think there's all kinds of symbolism going on behind this. But what's interesting is a lot of people, and I believe Kaiser does this, but in Josephus' account of the Jewish wars, and this is that Let me find my page again.
This would be when Vespasian was, uh, conquering Galilee. But I want you to hear what, how, how Josephus describes it. And this is why I'm saying, when you read Josephus, you see this intensification, and you see very similar things happening at, at all these stages. So in his book on, uh, The, The Wars of the Jews, uh, book three, chapter 10, section nine, he says this, uh, there was a sea battle, and it was going on in the Sea of Galilee, which is up north, okay?
Um, and the Sea of Galilee is also called the Sea of Gennesaret, and in John, it's also called the Sea of Tiberias. So it's all the same [00:16:00] thing. So Josephus refers to it as the Sea of Gennesaret, but it's the Sea of Galilee, and there's this battle between the Jews and the Romans, and it's happening on the sea.
Uh, so we're jumping into the middle of it. "Sometimes the Romans leaped into their ships," leaped into the Jewish ships, "uh, with swords in their hands and slew them. But when some of them met the vessels, the Romans caught them by the middle and destroyed at once their ships and themselves who were taken in them.
And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads above the water, they were either killed by darts or caught by the vessel," in other words, rammed, "but if in desperate cases they were in, uh-" But if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim, uh, to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands.
Indeed, they were destroyed after various manners everywhere till the rest, being put to flight, were forced to get up on land, while the vessels encompassed about them on the sea. [00:17:00] Um, but as many as these were repulsed when they were getting ashore... I'm getting to the point. Uh, they were killed with darts upon the lake.
The Romans leaped, uh, out of their vessels, destroyed a great many more upon the land. One might then see the lake... Note this. "One might see the lake all bloody." So the Sea of Galilee was filled with blood. Okay, now how far that extended, I don't know, but Josephus describes it as, "One might see the lake as all bloody and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped.
And a terrible stink and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country, for as the shores, they were full of shipwrecks and of dead bodies, all swelled, and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun and putrefied, they corrupted the air insomuch that the min- the misery was not only the object of commiseration for the Jews, but to those who hated them."
The Romans were disgusted by it all as well, and had been the authors of their [00:18:00] misery. "This was the upshot of the sea fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was 6,500." This isn't even the destruction of Jerusalem, and Josephus is describing this as the lake becoming completely bloody.
Now, I'm not gonna say that that's what this trumpet is, but it sure comes close. And when we get into the actual bowls and we start talking about that, I might read you a few more sections from Josephus. Um, Josephus can be hard to read, as you can tell when, as I was trying to read it out loud, but, uh, it is interesting.
But again, all of that just to say I don't think it's re- recapitulatory. I don't have a problem with it. I don't think it does any damage to a preterist interpretation of the book. I just think it's an ongoing intensification as we go. Birth pains, the beginning conquering of other parts of Israel, and [00:19:00] then we finally get to Jerusalem.
Okay? And, and in addition to that, there's another seven, I'm gonna call them plagues for lack of a better word, uh, that we don't know what they consist of. Do you remember what I'm talking about? So you have the seals, and then you have the trumpets, and then there's something that comes, there's seven somethings that come between the trumpets and the bowls.
Do you remember what, what the other one is?
Thunders. Okay? I believe it's nine or 10, John gets this little book, and he's told to read the book. And I don't think the content of the book are the thunders. I think the content of the book actually is chapters 11 through 14, but we'll get to that when we get there. Um, but we have these seven thunders, and John is about to testify and basically explain them, and God says, "No, keep it to yourself."
And so we don't know what [00:20:00] those are. But, um, I don't... Again, I don't think it fits a re- recapitulatory framework. Um, so does that make sense? Any questions on that? One question
When you read Josephus, does he go into detail about, like, the actual destruction of Jerusalem in that all this imagery in Revelation is pointing to, like, a total destruction. There's no stone left unturned. Is it just that the temple itself was destroyed, or the people in Jerusalem as a whole? No, it was the people in Jerusalem as a whole.
Not only that, but, like, when we get to, uh... I think it's 10 or 11 when, uh, uh... Well, actually, I think we see it in one of these too, but there's a lot of demonic activity in the Book of Revelation. And when you read [00:21:00] Josephus, what the Jews were doing to themselves, the only thing that can explain it is demonic activity.
There were civil wars going on in the city of Jerusalem while they were experiencing a famine, while the Romans had all the siege work around the city, you know, basically waiting for them to kill thems- kill themselves, and then they were gonna break through. Mm-hmm. So yes, Josephus goes into pains-taking detail in terms of what happened, and it is...
There's no other word to describe it other than it is disgusting. There are factions. There is killing. There is murdering. There is raping and pillaging, all while these people are starving. And then there's other factions trying to get them to give up. There's the high priest and the, the priestly faction that are doing some weird things, and some of them are getting murdered.
I mean, it's, it's horrible. And again, I think all of that is captured in the Book of Revelation with this demonic activity [00:22:00] that's poured out on Jerusalem. Is Josephus living? So Josephus was actually a, uh, Jewish general, and he was taken captive, and on your outline, he was taken captive, uh, sometime between 67 and 68 AD.
I forget the name of the city. I could give it to you because I could look it up. But when Vespasian is coming down and conquering Galilee, they end up, uh, uh, Josephus is defending a particular city, and they end up conquering the city. And I didn't read it in clear detail, but for some reason, Vespasian took a liking to Josephus.
And if I remember the story correctly, he ends up adopting Josephus, making... Josephus is a grown man. He's in his 30s and stuff. But he adopts him in the sense that he makes him legally his son, and then Josephus becomes an official Roman historian. So Jes- Josephus is writing sometime around the year 72, 73 AD.
In fact, I think [00:23:00] that might be on your chart. Uh, no, I didn't include it on that. Okay. But yeah, he's, he's, he's not writing as it goes, so he is writing from memory. And most people think that Josephus is a pretty competent historian, um, although there's a lot of arguments as to a lot of his details. Not everyone agrees.
Um, Rich gave me a book to read right now because Josephus also mentions Christ in his writings, and he mentions him in a very good light. Like, maybe he was the Messiah. He did miracles and things like that. But a lot of people have disputed that section in Josephus. And the book that Rich gave me, um, basically the author is coming out with what he considers to be new evidence, but he's trying to argue that no, this was actually Josephus.
It wasn't an interpolation. It was actually what Josephus thought and what he wrote. So, um, there's a lot of people that defend him. There's a lot of people that think he's wrong on the details. But [00:24:00] most everyone would say that generally he was a competent historian and, and the general picture that he outlines is, is pretty accurate.
So... So then at this time Jerusalem or Israel is a nation state then that has an organized military? No, bec- Okay, so that's a good question. Um, no. They-- I don't even know if I'd call them a nation state. They're a conquered nation, okay? But Rome recognized... Once Rome conquered you, they gave all the conquered people a certain amount of leeway, and it differed with the different nations.
So they were still a nation of sorts. They still considered themselves a people, and so did other conquered nations within Rome. Um, but none of them were allowed to have a military or anything. This is something that when they decided to revolt, that they did. And basically, when they conquered, uh, the guy that I [00:25:00] can't remember his name, uh, but when they conquered him and routed him, and I could look it up if you want me to.
Cestius, again, I think is his name. Um, but that really emboldened, emboldened them. And again, I think that's part of God's sovereign plan. He basically made them think that, "Hey, we can actually win this. We routed the, the Romans." Um, and he was a legitimate general. He had a legitimate force, and the Jews did a, a really good job.
But as you continue to read Josephus, uh, he'll tell you, he'll tell you two things. He'll say that the Jews basically conquered themselves, and I would argue that was the demonic activity going on in Jerusalem. But he also, uh, continues to remind the reader that they were ill-prepared. They were not well-organized.
'Cause he'll spend chapters describing the Roman army, and that's where you can get in- some insight into how they formed in their brigades, and how many troops they had and, you know, how they mustered and all that. 'Cause he just, again, goes into painstaking detail on what they looked like, how they set up camp, how they pitched their [00:26:00] tents.
I mean, detail. Um, but then he goes to the Jews, and basically they were unorganized. They didn't have good weapons. Um, they basically were fooled into thinking they could take on the greatest army in the world. And, uh, so no, they did not have a standing army. They did have what you might call a standing police force.
That would have been the temple guard. Uh, but they were limited in a lot of what they could do. That's why they had to take Jesus before Pilate because at that time they could not, uh, carry out capital punishment on their own.
Good? All right, so look at verse six. We'll, we'll just, we'll cover the trumpets and see what we can, what sense we can make out of them. So in chapter eight, verse six, "And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them." Couple of things about the trumpets. Uh, it was normal that [00:27:00] trumpets would have been sounded before a war.
Okay? In fact, if you remember when Moses, uh, divvied up the troops and he had them... He had, uh, three different tribes on each side of the tabernacle, um, and they were called out by trumpets. Certain trumpet sounds basically meant, "Let's move. We're just-- God's telling us to move." And then there were other trumpet sounds that indicated we're gathering for war.
So trumpets, it, it was common, um, and it wasn't particularly good news. Okay? Um, there's, uh, other, uh, scholars will see in the trumpets, uh, the Feast of Trumpets in the Old Testament, and the Feast of Trumpets was, uh, believe it or not, very geared towards the salvation of the Gentiles. It was a recogni- cognition of the salvation of the Gentiles.
And, uh, so a lot of scholars see significance in that. But it is, uh, significant that these angels are given trumpets. Verse seven: "The first [00:28:00] sounded, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth," or I would argue to the land. "And a third of the land was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, um, and all class of the green grass was burned up."
So I think I argued the first week that, um, I don't think... This is me, others would disagree, but I don't think a third is meant to be taken literally, because again, this is a symbolized... Jesus says, "I'm gonna reveal this in symbols." I think it just meant this is the start of it. This isn't the full-on destruction of Jerusalem yet.
Okay? So there's a l- a, a limitation in the destruction that can be done. I think it's interesting that it mentions the land first, and then it's gonna mention the sea, because a- again, uh, the land often refers to the... And I would argue here it does, it refers to the land of Israel. All right? And then later in the book, in a couple chapters, we're gonna be introduced to a land beast.
[00:29:00] Okay? And I'm gonna argue that that's the high priest. And then here in a minute, another trumpet's gonna strike the sea. The sea traditionally in the Old Testament has always referred to the Gentile nations. I think it's Rome, 'cause I think Rome has experienced a certain amount of judgment, as is Jerusalem.
Nero dies, there's chaos, you know, in Roman government, and it, it was the end of the Julian line. So the, the, this line of, quote-unquote, divine emperors comes to an end. Not so divine. Um, and then there's just- There are peaceful times, there are calm times, but there's chaos often when emperors transition for the rest of Rome's history.
Um, and right after we're introduced to the land beast in the Book of Revelation, we're introduced to the sea beast, and that's where we get the 666. And clearly by the description, and we'll go over it in detail when we get there, the sea beast is [00:30:00] clearly Rome. All right? Um, so some people will emphasize that the land here is Israel, and this was a, uh, judgment upon Israel.
Um, and then when we get to the sea, that's a judgment on the Romans, and then we get to the springs of water, that's a judgment on the temple or the priesthood. Um, others would simply see it as things were happening on land, air, and sea. All right? Um, but here's the big deal. Here's the thing that I want you to catch.
The first sounded and there came hail and fire mixed with blood. Does that make you think of anything Old Testament-like?
Yeah, plagues, uh, on Egypt. Okay, and I mentioned this, I think the, uh, uh, two weeks ago. Um, in the Book of Revelation, uh, Israel becomes [00:31:00] Egypt. Because what, what did Egypt do to Israel? They oppressed them. They persecuted them. What is Israel doing to the church? Israel is no longer the people of God. The church are the people of God, and Israel is oppressing and persecuting the church.
So Israel has become Egypt. Later, uh, as things develop, Israel becomes Babylon. Okay? So Israel is put in a very bad light because they're covenant breakers, they crucified the Messiah, and they've rejected God's covenant. Because the old covenant was always meant to lead to the new, and they rejected it.
So, but, uh, you can write these verses down. I'll read a couple of them. But Exodus 9:18, Exodus 9:18, and then verses 24 and 25 as well. In Exodus 9:18 it says, "Behold, about this time tomorrow I will send a very heavy hail, such as has not been seen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now." And then in verses 24 and 25, "So there was hail and fire flashing [00:32:00] continually in the midst of the hail, very severe, such as had not been seen in the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
And the hail struck all that was in the field, throughout all the land of Egypt, both man and beast. And hail also struck every plant of the field and shattered every tree of the field." So if this hail was powerful enough to shatter trees, then obviously when it struck men and animals, people were dying.
So you've got hail, fire, and blood, the exact same thing you've got on this first trumpet. Um, again, I think the one-third simply means, uh, partial. We talked about, uh, uh, the land beast. And, uh, you can find in, in Josephus at different times, uh, when the Romans would seize, uh, siege certain cities, they would decimate the trees surrounding the cities.
They would destroy it, especially fruit trees or any tree that bared any kind of food so that the people in the city couldn't get any food. But then they would also [00:33:00] use the trees to build their siege works and stuff like that. So it was a common occurrence at every point in the war that trees would be destroyed.
Um
Okay. Second trumpet, uh, verse eight. Uh, "Second angel sounded and there was something like a great mountain burning with fire that was thrown into the sea and a third of the sea became blood." Okay. Um, again, the mountain could be a reference to Jerusalem or the Holy Land. Um, and again, it goes back to Jesus' parable or at least his saying about, you know, if you have the faith to tell this mountain to uproot itself and be cast into the sea.
And a lot of different commentators, and I lean this way as, as well, Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. Okay? Now it might sound weird because he's teaching about faith, if you have faith to move this mountain. But remember, the apostles [00:34:00] and the church was gonna be persecuted. And why is all of this taking place?
Because of the prayers of the saints. So it makes sense. The prayers of the saints actually uprooted this mountain and cast it into the sea, and the picture makes sense. If the mountain is the Holy Land, if it's Jerusalem, they're cast into the Gentile nations because they're ultimately decimated by the Gentiles.
So again, I think, uh, it helps us interpret things simply by remembering the biblical language and the biblical symbology. Um,
third of the sea became blood. I already read you a, a portion of Josephus that gave one example of that. Third of the creatures, verse nine, "A third of the creatures which were in the sea that had life died and a third of the ships were destroyed." Uh, does that remind you of anything? Another plague maybe?
What happened to the Nile It turned to blood, and everything was dying and coming on shore, and it was putrid, and the Egyptians didn't like it. [00:35:00] Um, Exodus 7, verses 20 and 21, if you're, if you're jotting them down. "So Moses and Aaron did even as the Lord had commanded, and he lifted up the staff and struck the water that was in the Nile, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, and the water that was in the Nile was turned to blood.
The fish that were in the Nile died, and the Nile became foul so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile, and the blood was throughout all the land of Egypt." So again, we have a-- There is recapitulation here, but it's a recapitulation of the plagues of Egypt, because again, we should view Israel as Egypt right now.
Um- What does recapitulation mean? A re- repetition. Okay. A repeat. Okay. Okay? Um, and again, I would just... It was the sea, so ag- some people think Rome is experiencing a certain amount of punishment. Other people would say, "No, all this punishment is on Jerusalem." [00:36:00] Um, but again, we are introduced to the sea beast.
So, um, all right, third trumpet, verse 10. "The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch. And it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. And the name of the star is called Wormwood, and a third of the water became wormwood, and many died, and many men died from the waters because they were made bitter."
Um-
So a couple of things on this verse. Um Should we interpret this as a literal star?
Probably not because the earth would have been destroyed. Okay? Um, so contrary, in my humble opinion, to dispensationalism, uh, we don't interpret things... Literal means according to the literature or according to the genre. [00:37:00] So we know that Jesus said these things were symbols, so that's how we need to interpret these things.
Um, so the star falls from heaven. Some people think maybe it's a reference to Satan falling from heaven, but I think that reference comes a little bit later, and we'll get to that in a minute. Um-
But it affected the rivers and the springs. Okay? Now, some people think that the rivers and the springs refer to the temple. Because if, if you go back to Ezekiel 47, and if you go back to Genesis chapter 2, what flowed out of Eden? Four rivers. Okay? Um, and Eden, uh, if, if you really go back and you study the terminology and the picture, Eden was God's temple.
Okay, Eden was God's temple. In the center of Eden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's the Holy of Holies. That's where God met with Adam and Eve. Okay? So the [00:38:00] whole picture there. Then when you get to the tabernacle and the temple, it's made to look like Eden. I mean, there's fruit trees and all this stuff.
There's the colors, everything. And then when you get to the temple in Ezekiel 47, you've got the rivers of life coming out of the temple. So some people, and I lean this way a little bit, um, is this is probably an attack on the priesthood and just on the, uh, blasphemous, quote-unquote, "worship" that's coming out of the temple.
And again, if you were to read Josephus, I mean, the priests, the priests in charge at this time were not nice men, and they were certainly not serving God. Um, and it refers to the, the star as wormwood. Somebody look up
Deuteronomy 28:15[00:39:00]
Deuteronomy 28 verse 15, and then you're gonna jump to, uh, verse 18. But whoever has it can read it. 28:15? Yeah. "But if you will not obey the Lord-"
Okay, now jump to verse, uh- 18
Oh, I'm sorry, 29-18[00:40:00]
Oh, so they translate it-- What does your translation say? And wormwood. And wormwood. Okay, so wormwood is bitter fruit. Bitter fruit. Okay. But my point is, it's used throughout the Bible to res- to refer basically to poison, basically to the bitterness of sin which corrupts and destroys, okay? We see it in Deuteronomy.
We see it in Proverbs chapter five. Uh, Solomon is describing the adulterous woman, and he says, "But in the end, she is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword." So we see this picture of wormwood throughout. It's sin and bitterness. So again, it kind of fits, uh, what the priesthood had turned into. Um, or you can take it a little more at face value.
And again, because of the [00:41:00] famine, because of war, because of pestilence, you know, the land, the sea, and the rivers are all being affected, which, which led to disease and starvation and famine and bitterness and all these things. Um, some people, uh, I don't-- Again, I don't, but some people see wormwood as possibly a name of Satan.
It was Satan that fell from heaven, okay? But again, I think that comes, uh, a little bit later. Question with that. Yep. In verse eleven, it uses wormwood, and it capitalizes the word wormwood indicating the name. But then in the next ver- in the next sentence waters became wormwood, lowercase wormwood Yeah. Uh, a- a- again, translation.
Um, the name of the star is called Wormwood. So actually, it's not even translation. Um, the name of the star is called Wormwood. Wormwood is a proper [00:42:00] name here, so usually you capitalize names, so the translators capitalized it there. So is it representing Satan? Well, again, that's what some commentators would argue, that it's representing Satan, that it was Satan who...
Because you do read of Satan falling from heaven like lightning, falling from heaven as a star. Um, but again, I think it comes later in the book where Satan falls from heaven, okay? Because in fact, I think it comes in the next chapter, because it's Satan who's cast from heaven, and they give him names that correspond to Satan, and it's Satan that goes to the bottomless pit and releases the other demons, which I think creates all the havoc in Jerusalem when they're finally pent up at the last part of the war, and they're killing each other and doing all kinds of disgusting things.
Um, so here I think it's just going off of Wormwood is typically used throughout the Bible to refer to sin that, that results in bitterness and, and pain [00:43:00] and devastation. Um, and I do kind of lean towards that, you know, maybe this has something to do with the priesthood. Because it, it really is, if you look at the history of the fall of Jerusalem from the time of Jesus until 70 AD, and the priesthood played a huge part in the fall.
Because they continued to sacrifice, they continued to do things they weren't supposed to do. They contin- continued to lead the, the people into apostasy. And I would argue, I don't really have time to prove it right now, but, uh, I would argue that in 2 Thessalonians 2:3... Anybody remember what 2 Thessalonians is?
Go ahead and turn there
Yeah. So go ahead and turn to 2 Thessalonians, and somebody can start reading in verse one. Hang on, let me get there too[00:44:00]
All right, go ahead 2
Thessalonians what? Chapter two, and we're gonna start reading in verse one Okay Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him- Okay, stop for a minute. Who's being gathered together?
Our. Okay? Paul puts himself in the context of the Thessalonians. Okay? I would argue this is not the second coming. This is Jesus coming in 70 AD to conquer Jerusalem. Okay? Keep reading That you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Can you stop for a minute? If what Jesus taught and what the apostles were teaching, because remember the apostles are teaching [00:45:00] things more than just in this letter. Okay? And if you read 2 Thessalonians, you know there's a background to Paul's former teaching. In fact, he's gonna say something here in a minute.
Why would the first century Christians even be concerned about a rumor that Christ has already come if it's referring to a second coming? Now, if it's referring to something else that the expectation was it was gonna take place in their lifetime, then this warning makes sense, that these guys might be confused that Jesus may have come already.
Keep reading "But no one in any way to see thee, for it will not come unless they-"
Godlessness is revealed the son of Keep, keep going Who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not [00:46:00] remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Okay, so that's good enough for now because we're not gonna get into a ton of detail. But I would argue that when you unpack this It's something that's going to happen in the lives of the Thessalonians.
In fact, he says, "You know who's restraining this person." Okay? It may have very well been Rome, but whoever it was, they were, they were restraining him then during the lives of these people, and there was gonna come a time when he was gonna stop restraining him. Okay? Paul reminds them, "I taught on these things, so this isn't the first thing."
And we read that and we're like, "Why didn't you write it all down?" It would have made it so much easier. Uh, but the high priest did exalt himself above every [00:47:00] so-called god or object of worship, and the high priest did take his, his seat in the temple. I mean, that's, you know, the great day of atonement and stuff like that, displaying himself as being God.
He was supposed to be a representation of God, but he stopped being that when Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. Okay? So now it became something blasphemous and evil. You know what... You know. You already know. Tell us, Paul. You know what restrains him, and the idea is he's being restrained right now.
This man, he's clearly talking about a man, is currently being restrained in the lives of the Thessalonians. He was on Earth then. Okay? Um, uh, so that in his time he will be revealed for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. It's working now. Only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end with the appearance, with the appearance of his coming.
So again, [00:48:00] uh, it would be a different study, a different time. I would certainly go into a whole lot more detail, but I would argue that you have the same elements there as you have in the Book of Revelation, a current, this generation happening. The man of lawlessness is already present. He's already being restrained, and these guys are confused because, you know, somebody said Christ has already come.
None of that makes sense unless we're talking about some kind of expectation that was gonna happen in the first generation of the church. Okay? And when you compare these words with what's gonna come a little bit later in the Book of Revelation, I'm gonna argue again that the sea beast is the high priest.
Okay? Just like the land beast is... So the sea beast is both Jerusalem and the high priest, just like the land beast is both Rome and the leader of Rome at the time, Nero. Okay? And John, I think, specifically [00:49:00] identifies Nero with the, the term 666, um, because Nero was on the throne at the time. Um, but it was always the nation and the leader of the nation, and at the time when Revelation was being written, the high priest was clearly the leader of the Jewish nation.
So, um So back to the third trumpet, I think it very well could be the priesthood and, uh, because the priesthood had become wormwood, and they were poisoning and, and infecting the people, and they were leading the charge. I mean, they were the ones that made up the Sanhedrin. They led the charge on the crucifixion of Jesus.
They led the charge on the killing of James. They led the charge on the persecution of the church. I mean, they kept leading all these charges. They led the charge on the persecution of the apostles. Um, and then they got in... Pardon my speech, but they got in bed with Rome, okay? And we see that in the Book of Revelation.
So, um, [00:50:00] all right. Fourth trumpet, and we'll wrap it up for tonight. Verse 12: "The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened, and the day would not shine for a third of it and the night might-- and the night in the same way.
Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in mid heaven, saying with a loud vois- voice, 'Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the land because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet and the three angels who are about to sound!'" So again, couple of things. Uh, sun, moon, stars, uh, as always, again, we've looked at the, the passages.
It's a, uh, figurative way of talking about a destruction of a kingdom or an empire, and Jerusalem was on the verge of being completely destroyed as a nation, as a people, as a kingdom, um- Personally, I don't [00:51:00] think, and if I have the date wrong, correct me, but I don't think... Was it 1947 when Israel be- became a nation again?
'48, I think. '48? Okay. I don't think that has anything to... It has nothing to do with the Bible. Okay? And the Israel that's in Israel today, they cannot trace their lineage. They cannot trace themselves to the tribes. I mean, it's... They're certainly a godless nation. I saw a meme the other day. Uh, you know, the only nation in the Middle East that celebrates Pride Week, Israel.
And that's not made up. That's true. Okay? They lead the Middle East in abortions. They lead the Middle East in homosexual marriages. I mean, it's not the same thing. Israel was destroyed as a nation, as a people of God, as a covenant people. They were covenant breakers at the time, but they would have still been considered a covenant people.
There was some overlap, and they were destroyed in 70 AD. [00:52:00] Um, but as Vespasian is marching down, as there's destruction taking place, it's just a partial destruction. So again, he uses the phraseology a third, because the full destruction is gonna come when we get to the bowls. Um, but the leadership is gonna be destroyed in sun, moon, and the stars.
Um, and here's what I find really interesting. What was the emblem of the Roman Empire?
I'll give you a hint. It was a bird An eagle. Okay? On their, on their flags and their, their emblem was an eagle. And it's interesting in verse 13, "Then I looked and I heard an eagle." It's an eagle announcing this, flying in mid heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell upon the earth," literally upon the land, "because of the remaining blasts of the trumpets and the three angels who are about to sound."
Okay? And these remaining blasts, that's when we're gonna get into the [00:53:00] demonic activity and things like that. So we have... Basically, as I look at these trumpets, you have Israel being destroyed from the outside, and you have Israel, when we get to the last three, being destroyed from the inside. Okay? And it's because of their own sin and their own covenant violation.
And you find all this symbology and these plagues and stuff, we can go back to this is what Egypt did to Israel, but now Israel has become Egypt because they've become the persecutors. So, um, questions? If not- Do you... When you say, again, kind of-
destruction of the Jewish people[00:54:00]
that would happen in 70 AD, does that mean, like, literally those who had practiced Judaism were then destroyed and wiped out? There wouldn't have been any remnants? No, there would've been a remnant that would, would, was dispersed amongst the Gentile nations. Okay? But they did lose their tribal identity, and they basically were, uh, like any foreigner, basically mixed with the nations.
They did keep a certain amount of identity because they did, you know, most Jews still, quote unquote, tried to keep the law. Um, which is a bit of a farce, because if you don't have a temple, you can't keep the law. Okay? And they celebrate the holy days, but it, it's meaningless because you don't have a temple.
You know, they can say it means something, but they're not keeping the law in their celebrations today. So they're no longer a covenant people, they were dispersed among the nations, they lost their tribal id- identity, and again, all the vestiges of the old covenant system were destroyed. Which is why I don't believe there will ever be a temple built.
Which I think it's ironic that there's a Islamic mosque on the temple. I mean, that's like the [00:55:00] exclamation point from God, you know? You're not a covenant people anymore. Yeah. Okay? Now, there still exists a true Israel, because, again, the church was grafted into Israel, and I would argue that's always what the Old Testament intended.
That Israel would blossom, and the nations would come pouring in. And obviously, if the nations come pouring in, if all the Gentile nations come pouring into Israel, then the church is gonna consist of more Gentiles than Israelites. Okay? Uh, which is what happened. The early, the, the earliest church consisted of many, many thousands of Israelites.
Okay? But then it started extending to the Gentile nations, and then after the fall here, it expanded in the Gentile nations. So yeah, I don't think it wiped out all the Jews. In other words, the people living in Israel, I think they still have Jewish blood. Okay? I think they're, they're true [00:56:00] Israelites. Okay?
Um, but the, the... In terms of a covenant people, the blood is tarnished because there's an intermixing of tribes. They don't know who's who. In fact, most dispensationalists will tell you, uh, because in the new, you know- In the millennial reign, when the temple is built according to premillennial dispensationalism, priests are gonna re-offer sacrifices.
And basically, what I've heard dispensationalists say is God will do a miracle and identify who is truly from the live, the line of Levi. Because if you remember in Chronicles, when they return to the land, it was a big deal. If you could not prove with paperwork that you were of the lineage of Levi or of Aaron, you weren't, you weren't allowed to serve.
I mean, you could not serve as a priest on your own say-so. You had to have some kind of paperwork, some kind of lineage demonstrating, and we see that in the various, um, [00:57:00] genealogies in the book of Second or First Chronicles. So it's a big deal, so does that answer your question? Yeah. Okay. Any other questions?
Go ahead, um Would you use the word replaced or I think there's a huge difference because a lot of times people that hold my view, uh, post-millennial view, and even amillennials, they're accused of replacement theology. And I would argue that, uh, actually the dispensationalist is the one who practices replacement theology because they will tell you that the church has temporarily replaced Israel, and Israel will replace the church when we get to the millennium.
What we say is that the church is a fulfillment of Israel, that the church fulfilled what God always promised Israel. Okay? It was never just this little bit of land in the Middle East. It was always the world. [00:58:00] That's what God promised Abraham. Okay? It wasn't just this one little nation. It was always the ethnos, all the nations.
Um, it wasn't this, you know, physical temple. God was always gonna build a new temple, and it was gonna consist of believers. And again, that's splattered throughout the Old Testament. So yeah, I would, I would use the language of fulfillment theology, not replacement at all
All right. Well, I'm gonna pray. If you got more questions, you can ask. But Lord, thank you so much, uh, for this book. Help us to understand it. Uh, help us to understand as much of the details as we can, and help us to recognize when the details are just part of the bigger picture and we're supposed to get the big picture.
Um, help us be diligent students of this book, and more than anything else, Lord, help us live out the truths of this book. And I think the main truth, Father, is [00:59:00] Jesus wins and he will continue to win in history. So thank you for that truth. We ask all this in Christ's name. Amen.
I don't know how the kids got this, but Elsa brought it to me
