Revelation - 2:1-7
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[00:00:00] Alright, so last week we finished chapter one, so I thought I'd just do a really super quick review.
Uh, and I'm not really gonna go over chapter one so much, but maybe some of the principles as we move forward. So the first thing that I would point out, um, is watch for the timing indicators because you're gonna find 'em throughout and, you know, we want to pay attention to them. Uh, another thing that I would point out that we talked about is it, it would be probably a really good idea if you haven't done it already, to go back and read the book of Daniel.
Uh, 'cause the book of Daniel is gonna have a lot to. Uh, there's a connection there. Yeah. So, uh, especially Daniel seven that will help us understand the first part of Revelation anyway, um, I would still contend and just remind you that I think the thesis passage is chapter one verse seven about Christ coming quickly.
Um, and then, uh, we talked about this last week, but I was just gonna point it out again in terms of an outline of the book. But in chapter one, verse 19, one of the many different ways you can [00:01:00] outline the book, uh, but John breaks it down into the things you have seen and, uh, the grammar there is past tense.
So that would include chapter one, the things which are, uh, that's in the present. So that would include, uh, chapters two and three 'cause he's writing to the churches. And then the things which will take place. I would translate it because I think the grammar wants it that way, but I would translate it the things which will take place right after these things.
Most of your translations will just say the things that will take place after this. But the word that's used there usually, in fact I would argue always in the New Testament, refers to something that's gonna happen very soon, not thousands and thousands of years from now. But, uh, scholars like to debate that stuff.
Um, in the, well, on your first page, on your handout, I gave you a map just to kind of, uh, you can kind of see, uh, [00:02:00] the seven churches are there. So when we get into it today, and we're gonna do four churches, if we get through chapter two today, um, the first letter went to Ephesus, and you can see where Patmos is.
So Patmos is Southwest of Ephesus. It goes to Ephesus, it runs north of Per Pergamum, and then it comes all the way back south, the Laia. So it's kind of a circular thing, which tells you how the book, uh, was meant to be circulated, how some of the early, uh, epistles were meant to be circulated. Um, so it would go to one church.
And usually what would happen is that church would make a copy of it and then they would send the copy off. Okay. Or maybe they'd keep the copy and send the original off. Okay. Um, but uh, and then they would make another copy. They would copy the original again, send that one to another church. So that's kind of how the copies and the process went.
Um, but just the one thing that I would say, because I don't want you to think it didn't happen this way, is as long as the original was [00:03:00] around, they would've made copies of it. So it's not like copy of a copy of a copy of a copy there. There's some of that. And that's okay. That's why we have textual criticism.
But as long as they would've worn that original one out, making copies and sending them. But anyway, uh, that's one thing. And then in the very back of your notes, I gave you another little table and uh, that kind of reflects, and I'll refer to it as we go through it, but that kind of reflects the historicist view.
Um, of the church and what's going on and things like that. And I just went ahead and included it so that you would have that and you could reference it.
This looks like a copy of a copy of a copy.
It is a copy, but I got it off downloaded and it didn't, it didn't come in super smooth, but who remembers what the Historicist view is?
So you know what I'm talking about.
So the Historicist view is that, [00:04:00] uh, basically the book of Revelation gives us the history of the apostolic age up until Christ returns. Okay. So it's different parts of the book refer to different parts in history, but they also see the seven churches as referring to different parts of history. So for instance, and we'll go through this as we go through it, but the letter to Ephesus is supposedly a description of the entire church in the first century.
Uh, the letter to Smyrna would take us from about a hundred AD to three 13 ad. So it would be a time of when church and state started to combine because that's when Constantine was around. That's when Constantine made, uh, Christianity illegal religion, at least towards the end of it. So anyway, uh, that's just a quick explanation, but we have gone over that.
Any questions about that? Alright. Would somebody like to read, uh, [00:05:00] Ephesians chapter two, the first seven verses, that'll be the first letter to Ephesus and whoever gets there can, can read
to the angel of the church in emphasis, right? The one who holds the seven stars in his right hand. The one who walks among the seven golden lambs dead says this, I know your deeds and your labor and your perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people and that you have put all those.
Who call themselves apostles to the test and they are not. And you are found them to be false. And you have pre persevered and endured on account of my name and have not become weary. But I have this against you that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen and repent and do not, and do the deeds you did at first or else I'm coming to you and I will remove your lamps dead from [00:06:00] its place unless you repent, but you have this that you would hate the deeds.
And Nicola Nicolais, which I also hate, the one who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, to the one who overcomes. I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is the paradise of God.
Okay. So as I've argued before, I think that these are all historical churches. And when I say historical, they were around when John was writing.
So since I hold to an early date, they were around sometime mid sixties, uh, ad, so they're all actual churches. And as we read these letters, kind of what we want to do is what do we need to be careful of? What were these churches doing right? And what do we need to be careful of? Because the fact of the matter is none of these churches exist today.
Okay? Now you could argue there are all kinds of reasons for that. Um, but it seems to [00:07:00] me in almost every letter, uh, and I'm paraphrasing, but Jesus says, if you don't remain faithful, I'll remove the lampstand. So I don't know that you can blame it on just history or whatever. Um, I mean, there could have been a mass migration, so I wouldn't push it to the hilt, but, uh, it is interesting.
So I'm gonna give you a little bit of background on all the cities. Um, Ephesus was the largest and probably the most important city in the Roman province of Asia. Uh, we are probably pretty familiar with Ephesus because we have a letter written to them. Um, we know from the book of Acts that Paul founded the church in Ephesus, uh, according to Acts chapter 2031.
Not only did he find it, found it, uh, but he labored there for over three years. And then, uh, in Acts chapter 20, we see that farewell address where he gets together with the elders and, you know, he gives them ex rotations and, you know, it's just, it's actually very heartwarming, emotional, farewell address.
[00:08:00] But, uh, uh, there was about 250,000 people that lived in Ephesus, and for the most part, until Paul came and Christianity came, they were devoted to the cult of Artemis, or in Latin Diana. So they had a temple there. In fact, the temple was considered one of the seven. Of the world. So this was a significant, very important city.
Um, and they were consumed with basically idol worship. Okay. So that's kind of just a background. Um, but going back to verse one, and again, stop me and ask questions as we go, but, uh, the angel to the angel of the church in Ephesus, right, the one who holds the seven stars, uh, in his right hand, and the one who marks walks among the seven golden lampstands.
So who remembers what are the stars?
Angels,
angel Messengers.
Okay. Yes, angel means messenger. Okay. So they're messengers, but are they, [00:09:00] are they actually heavenly beings, messengers, or what?
We're using their pastors.
Pastors. Okay. Alright. Yes, I think they're pastors. Um, I think it makes sense because, uh, even in the early church, you don't read anything in the book of acts where an angel came and brought the message on a regular basis to the church.
But it was the pastors and the elders that regularly instructed the church. And these letters are all about instructing the church to walk godly and to follow Christ. And again, unless there's something in the context to point, otherwise, I'll get to you. Um, angel's probably a bad translation because that is basic.
It's just messenger. But when we read Angel, then we start to think heavenly being, but go ahead.
Uh, could it possibly mean like angels guiding them?
That's one theory. Okay. So there are some that think that, um, and we read elsewhere in the New Testament that angels are definitely interested in the worship service.
Okay. And we can expect on any [00:10:00] given Sunday that there would be angels present in our church, in every church. Um, but again, because of the way he's writing to them in these letters, I still would, I would still hold that they're the elders of the pastors of the churches. Um, but yes, that, that is one view out there.
Um, the other thing is, and we'll see this when we get to verse seven, but the other thing you wanna keep in mind is these are historical churches. And so when he addresses the church and he tells 'em what they're doing well and what they're doing wrong, that applies to that church. But every, at the end of every letter, he says something along the lines of, let the churches hear what, what the spirit is saying, or let the churches plural hear.
So these were meant for individual churches, but they were also meant for all the churches. So they were meant for you and I, okay, what were these guys doing right? What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? Um, it talks about Jesus as he holds the seven stars [00:11:00] in his right hand, he walks among the seven lampstand.
What is that telling us? What do you think that's telling us when it comes to the churches?
He's got his eyes on. The pastors pretty intently.
Okay? He's sovereign over them. Okay? He's sovereign over them, and they're his, this is his church. It's not ours. Alright? So we don't have the right to just, Hey, I think we'll do this today, or we'll do this next Sunday or whatever.
We have to follow the master's guidance and we have to strive at doing that. So, um, but he's sovereign over the churches. Uh, he says, I know your deeds and it starts off really good. I know your deeds. He describes them as toils, which means burdensome labor. So this church is working really hard. Uh, they preserved, so they've held up under difficulty.
Um, and then this is really good. You cannot tolerate evil men. Um, [00:12:00] so, uh, they are intolerant. How many of you think of Christianity as being intolerant?
Good. Depends on how you, depends on the church. It's a negative or a positive intolerance.
So how would you make that distinction?
Well, it, but Christianity should be or is today,
this is, this is more of a should be.
Should we as the church be intolerant?
No.
We should be intolerant of evil in our midst.
Okay.
And sin,
love the sinner. Hate the sin.
Okay. To
paraphrase.
Yep. I would simply say using the biblical terminology, and I, and I get what we get hung up on what tolerant and intolerant means in our day and age. But we are meant to be [00:13:00] intolerant. As I said earlier. We're meant to follow our head, Jesus. And whatever Jesus is intolerant of, we ought to be intolerant of.
That does not rule out love. All right. That doesn't mean we don't love the sinner, okay? Um, doesn't mean we don't love people. Um, but part of the problem, I mean, recently anyway with the church is we have bought into this idea that we're supposed to be tolerant. We've bought into this idea that that love means that somehow we're supposed to tolerant, tolerate all kinds of things.
And yet this church is praised for its intolerance, for its hatred of evil, for its judging of false teachers. Just something to think about. And I know it's hard because it seems to go against the grain on how we think today and how we use language, but I think that's what he's communicating here. Um, you cannot tolerate, you cannot [00:14:00] bear, you cannot carry, is what the word means.
You cannot sustain as a burden evil men, and you put them to the test, who call themselves apostles. They weren't, you found them to be false. So here's my question. It's kind of twofold. Threefold. We'll see. Are there apostles today? That would be the first question.
Maybe.
I don't think there are. They are, but you tell us. I don't, I don't see that. Are we all technically apostles of Christ? I don't believe they're supposed to be apostles.
No, they're call.
Okay. I would say that, uh, in the technical sense, and I think, so the word apostle just means sent out one. Okay. So if I sent Neil on the Michel admission, you could theoretically, technically say he's functioning as an apostle.
Okay. But they're referring to the 12, they're referring to those who [00:15:00] exercised authority over the church. We do not have those kinds of apostle. Okay. Whoever the last apostle was, most likely, John, even though I think John is writing in the sixties, um, everything we have in church history, so you know, this isn't a hundred percent, but everything we have in church history says John lived the longest.
Everything we have in church history says that John, although we read that he was oiled in oil, I don't know how he lived through that or what he looked like afterwards, but he wasn't martyred as far as we know, all the other apostles were actually killed for their faith. And there's things in church history that tell us that John lived to be an old man.
Okay? Um, but once the last apostle, and I think, and I've said this before, I think there are most likely if you read all of what scripture says, at least 13 apostles, okay? Judas lost his spot. They [00:16:00] brought in Mathias. Okay? We read that in Acts chapter one. And then Paul becomes an apostle. And that's, I don't think there's any dispute there.
But I would also argue that James, the brother of Jesus was an apostle. Paul refers to him as apostle and he equates him with Peter and John in the book of Galatians.
That would be 14.
Um, wasn't a qualifier Yes. For apostle be directly linked with Jesus. In other words, a a contemporary up. Yes.
In,
in it was always questionable about Paul, but he had seen him in a, in that vision out on the, on the walk.
So that, that was always, it's always seemed like that was a, a, a question mark, but he were qualified as a puzzle to the vision.
Yeah. And, and so a couple of things on that. Um, I think we have to be careful because those qualifications are talked about in Acts chapter one, when, when they're choosing someone to replace Judas.
And those are the qualifications that Peter put upon. This is how we're gonna pick 'em. Okay. [00:17:00] But technically speaking. An apostle is whoever God chooses to send and whoever God authorizes. So I don't think, couple of things with Paul, I don't think you can say even if Paul didn't qualify in the Petersons, that he's not an apostle.
'cause I think the Bible makes it crystal clear. But I also think historically Paul probably saw Jesus in his earthly. He was a Pharisee and he was around Jerusalem. He definitely saw Jesus in a very unique vision that no other person, you know, encountered the risen Lord in the way that Paul did, because it wasn't just on the road to Damascus.
It was later that Jesus taught him certain things as well. We read about in Galatians. So, and then, um, James, the brother of Jesus clearly saw him in his earthly life. So I would say, I don't think we're restricted to what Peter says, but I would probably argue that Paul and James would still fall under that.
So, so can that carry through to people [00:18:00] today? Because. I'm hearing, I've heard before that there are people in certain churches, I don't even remember what, who called themselves. They say that there are apostles in that church and there are other people who argue know that the apostles would, there are no more apostles after John.
Right. And I would be in that group.
You
would, I would argue that there are, there are no apostles today that, um, first of all, apostles must be sent out by God and apostles were given certain sign gifts to authenticate them, which nobody has today. Okay. Um, so yeah, I would argue keeping things short, 'cause we could get way off track here, but, um, I would argue that, um, the apostles died out by the early first century and so, and they left the church in the hands of the elders.[00:19:00]
So their authority, their ruling function passed on now to the elders of the church. So, okay. All of that to say we don't need to test apostles 'cause they don't exist, but we do need to test teachers. So how do you guys test who you're listening to?
Because obviously this is one of those things that Jesus praises this church for.
See if they're in line with the scriptures.
Okay.
If they're not teaching the scripture, then stop listening.
All right.
Just test them by their fruit.
Okay.
See what their family life's like. Uh,
okay. About it.
Yeah.
Okay.
I, I'd look at the congregation as well.
I,
in what sense?
I [00:20:00] think you're right. So I'm not,
um,
just see if they're, I guess the, if they're watered down, I guess easiest way, like, I don't know, it's like when you walk in a room and you can just tell that there's bad energy or vibe, like you just walk into certain churches, it's like, oh, this is just a little weird. Um,
fruit brings fruit. There's fruit in the congregation
as well.
Okay. No, I, I, I think there's something to that, I think, you know, um, but ultimately, and you said it, ultimately it boils down to the word. Okay. So what happens when you don't agree with the pastor teacher? Does that automatically make him wrong?
Yes.
I'm glad you agree with me on everything.[00:21:00]
Talk to the pastor, talk to the elders about it.
Okay.
Try to get a one-on-one view about what you differ on.
Okay. Should we expect, uh, in today's age, should we expect to agree 100% with all of our elders or pastors?
No.
No. I hope not.
Alright.
Well that was an emphatic No.
Look
at the church,
which is one of the reasons why, you know, the Book of Proverbs talks about iron, sharpening iron and stuff like that.
Um, should we be humble about it? Absolutely. Should we?
Yes.
Be humble about
it. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. There, there are ways to ask questions that are, Hey, I wanna learn. There are ways to disagree with people that, Hey, I love and respect you, but I just don't see it this way. And then there are ways that you just.
Being challenging. And that's not saying you can't challenge your pastor or elders, but the point is, if these guys are being praised [00:22:00] 'cause they tested apostles, then obviously we should be doing that with whoever would be teaching us or filling the role of elder. That's why when we go through the process, I try to announce it a year in advance so that you've got a whole year to start questioning whoever's going through the process.
So, um, yes ma'am.
Um, I don't know if people here are familiar with Mark Driscoll. He was from Seattle and then he moved down to Scottsdale, Arizona. And to me that's an example of a pastor who, um, for whatever the reasons were his elders found him not able to stay in the pulpit and then he immediately went and planted a new church out of state.
And so, um, I've wondered like the people who followed him or who have decided to go to his church if they [00:23:00] hadn't like, looked at past character and take counsel from previous people that they, that he was in ministry with. It seems so foolish to me, but over and over again, big pastors of big churches tend to do that.
They'll leave one congregation and then they go somewhere else where they start another big congregation. And I think it's hard when it's a young pastor because there's not a lot of history. You know, if it's somebody that's in their early twenties and they've gone to seminary, so it's harder to build a vouch for them.
But I think there's a lot that can be done to vouch for somebody who's older that they have served in a lot of different places and people just don't seem to do that anymore.
All right, verse three. Um, he says, you have perseverance. He already used that in verse two. So I mean, obviously he's, [00:24:00] Jesus sees the perseverance in this church. They, they hold up under trial. Um, you have endured, this is the same word, translated tolerate in verse two, only in verse two. It's a negative thing you do not tolerate.
Here. You, you do endure. So in the good sense, you endure in terms of evil, you don't tolerate it. Um, and why do you do it for my name sake and have not grown weary? That doesn't mean that if we're doing our jobs, we're not gonna get tired. The idea there is they haven't grown weary of following Christ, and especially in the early church, many of these people may have ended up being martyrs.
So in that sense, they have not grown weary, but which sometimes that's a good word. But here it's not in verse four, but I have this against you, that you have left your first love. And literally the, the word he uses here is you've divorced your first love. What do you think he means? What, what? What could be slash what [00:25:00] should be our first love?
Yeah. Christ.
You said, and you said Christ. Okay. Christ. So what would go hand in hand if we lost our first love and if God ought to be, and I agree 100%. Love of God, love of Christ should be our first love. What would go next?
Love his word.
What's that?
His word.
Okay. Yes, I would agree.
Obedience.
Obedience.
Except these guys were being obedient.
Faith.
These guys seem to be exercising faith. What
would,
and I might be asking the question
wrong, what would go, yeah, what would go wrong?
Yeah. What? What love of God is tied to love of what else? What's that? Oh,
love
of others neighbor. Yeah. The church
love of your brother.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, because commentators will argue here, is it love for one another or is it love for God? And I would say they go hand in hand. Okay. [00:26:00] Um, just, I'm gonna, somebody, uh, I'm gonna let you guys do the work. Somebody look up John 13 and you're gonna read verses 34 and 35. And somebody else look up one.
John chapter four, and I'm gonna have you read verses 20 and 21. So John 13 and one John four.
Okay, I got one. John.
Okay. One John four. And if you'd read 20 and 21
the first one, or John
first John,
the other one is John 13.
Oh, okay.
So 20 and 20.
20 and 21.
Gotcha. If someone says I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar.
For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he is not. Scene in this commandment we have from him that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
Okay, so John in his epistle, puts him hand in hand. Who has the John 13 verses 34 and 35.
A new commandment I've [00:27:00] given to you that you love one another as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this, shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have loved one to another?
Okay. Do you think
that is true of the modern day church? No.
No.
No. What's lacking in the modern day church?
They're putting themselves over their mother. Okay. Love of self, rather love than love of others churches.
Okay.
Lack of understanding.
I like to use money. Money. I like to use the term unity. We lack unity in a big way.
As a
church in whole.
That's a church hu Church Universal.
It's all, all broken up. Little pieces and parts all over. Everybody's fragmented,
right?
It's your
own little flavor. You don't like what Mike's saying? Well, there's two more churches. Less than a block away. Yeah.
Well, and I think there's a [00:28:00] misunderstanding of what love means.
Like, you know, oh, you don't love me if you don't agree with everything I say, or you don't love me because you're not giving me, you know, everything in your home. I, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like there's,
I, I 100% agree with you. We miss
a worldly love.
Yeah,
yeah. There's a misc. Yeah. Translated
to, uh, the church's adopted a
world
and
type of
love.
I was gonna say the tolerance thing. So what does it mean to love your brother?
And, and I would say to love your brother is to seek his best and to seek unit. And what I think is missing in the church today in terms of unity, is we're not even having the conversation. We go into our own camps and we put up our walls, and it's not uncommon for churches to talk bad about other churches, and we just, we're not willing to do the hard work, and it's going to take hard work.
[00:29:00] Um, I have a bucket list. Almost everyone has a bucket list. And one of the things I would love to do before I kick the bucket is to write a book. And I've kind of landed on what I'd like to write on. And you guys, you may remember it. I'm just gonna, I'll look it up and read it to you. But this to me characterizes the church today, and it's in Hebrews, uh, see the chapter five or six, but I can find it.
Okay. Hebrews chapter six, beginning in verse one. Hebrews six one. And this to me is such a critique. The, the author says, therefore leaving the elementary teaching. Leaving the basics. We're gonna leave the basics. We're gonna get to something of some substance here. Leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ.
Let us press on the maturity, not laying again a foundation. He's gonna list the basics. Here are the basics. Not laying again, a foundation of repentance from dead works of faith towards [00:30:00] God, of instruction about washing. That's three of laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
That's six things. And I don't know if you remember when we preached through this, but I'm telling you right now, those who claim to be evangelical do not agree on what these things mean. 2000 years later, the author of Hebrew says, this is the basics. This is the stuff you should all know. And yet, we argue about Lordship theology.
We argue about baptism, washings. We argue about ordination. We argue about every single thing on that list that he says is basic. And I just think that number one, we need to love one another. We need to respect one another. Um, and then we need to have the hard conversation, but you can't really have the conversation until you've established the relationship.
So, um, one of the things, go ahead.
Um, I was just gonna say that [00:31:00] I looked up, um, admonish one another 'cause Paul calls us to do that. And the, um, description was admonishing one another is a biblical practice of encouraging, guiding, and correcting fellow believers in love to promote spiritual growth and mutual support.
And it made me think of that for what Denise has said, like, heaven forbid somebody be in sin. And then you go to them and you gently and lovingly admonish them. They run, they're like, no, you're being judgemental. And so I think that is part of the issue of unity, is that we can't even admonish one another anymore.
And so how can you be unified if I'm not willing to hear that I might be in sin from a brother and sister in Christ. And likewise.
Yeah. How do you handle that situation if you do [00:32:00] that? And they will not hear it. And then church, others are like, wow, you're so judgmental. And how could you do that? How could you elders close your,
yeah, you gotta involve the elders.
Well, even if you do that, let's just say you do all those things. Ask,
communicate them and,
well, it's not, I mean, ask
the mouse,
like, let's just say it. You know, I, I mean it's just,
I get it what you're saying. It just,
how do, yeah. How do you,
doesn't matter who goes their way, it's automatically,
and then there's, you know, people on their side, you know it.
Wait, are we so close? This was a loving thing that we did by confronting this issue and Yeah, and you don't want to hear it. And now we're the ones that are unloving. How do you, how do you handle that? And how can we even be in unity beyond that?
Which is why we're where we're at. But I would, I, I would say that we, we keep going back to the scriptures and we keep doing what the scriptures ask us to do.
We keep questioning ourselves. We [00:33:00] find somebody to hold us accountable. Um, you guys know we've had, we've actually had I think, one major church discipline issue here. And before Matt and I moved forward with the church discipline, 'cause there's only two of us, I reached out to seven other pastors and talked to 'em about it.
So we have to have the, the humility to, to admit that, you know, maybe I'm wrong here, maybe I'm being closed-minded, maybe I'm not looking at this right. So I want to reach out to other pastors. And how would you handle this? In your congregation. So, um, but the main thing is we just have to keep doing what we know is right, what the scriptures say.
So, you know, if they don't take our admonition, we're gonna, if there's an actual witness, we're gonna bring somebody with us and, and talk to 'em. But you can't make people
right.
All we can do is keep pray for them.
But wouldn't that be a church discipline
issue? It could be, uh, it, it gets complicated without the exact details.
Yes. [00:34:00] It could be, it could lead to that.
Well, that, it kind of plays into what I was gonna ask, which is, you know, there's a point to agree to disagree, but at what point does agree to disagree, turn into, okay, now we have a serious problem, and how do you know where to find that line? Because it's easy to just be like, oh yeah, no, it's just, we're just gonna be friends even though we don't agree on this thing.
To, at what point does it cross into, okay, we can't, we can't be friends with these people. Because who, I was just talking to someone recently that said, uh, uh, people who, there are certain churches when you turn over and you become a part of their congregation, they ask that you cut off all of your other connections from any other church.
Yeah. I'm like, that seems pretty serious. But so I'm like, there are some congregations like that, that I'm like, if you don't believe our doctrine, then you know, we can't be friends anymore. And I'd like to think that we could be friends with other people, but have different congregations just 'cause we [00:35:00] don't believe the same things.
But what are the hard line issues? It's like we have to be on the same page on these,
I think. I think joining this church gave you the hard line. Gave you the hard line issues. Yeah, because that's, that's what we, the paper we signed, if we became members of the church, it, it delineated the things that this church teaches and believes that are basic Christian doctrines.
After that. What is agree to disagree, but use scripture to prove your point.
But I, I don't, just because someone doesn't hold to that tri-fold document certainly doesn't mean I can't still be their friend.
Right.
But I can't respect them. There's still, and I think as the church grows in maturity, I think the, the wide circle of what is considered orthodox, what is considered legitimate to believe, uh, is going to get smaller as the church matures.[00:36:00]
I, I, obviously, I believe that there's gonna be more unity. I'm just saying we don't have it right now. And part of the problem is, is because we're not even trying to establish the relationships and we're not doing the hard work and having the hard conversations,
well, you also have people just simply with what is in the world.
Everyone, everyone is looking for love. Right. And if they hear something negative, they say, well, that wasn't a loving person, or That wasn't a loving church, but are they right? And is it true? And they don't wanna hear that. They want to hear something that's gonna lift them up. Again, the
you mean God is queer?
Like that kind.
Maybe not even that bad, but yeah, maybe something that little more mild,
even
that is going that hard.
Even something really mild. We knew a couple that owned a gym and this was in Arizona and [00:37:00] there was a modesty issue. They came to church. Really? Really a modest, and those of you from California and whatnot, you know what I'm talking about up here?
We don't have the emo, it's too cold issues that we have in Phoenix. And they were attending Bible study and it was just, it was really bad and they were confronted very nicely. By another couple and was told, we're kind of uncomfortable how you guys are dressing, especially the wife. It's very immodest.
And it blew up. It was a train wreck. And because elders did not step in and say, when you come to church, you need to be covered. Um, they said, this is our opinion. We don't think we're being a modest. It was let go and it really caused a lot of dissension and big, big, big [00:38:00] problems down the road. And so even on something practical like modesty, if you become a member of a church and somebody comes and admonishes you, what is your heart?
And are you willing to hear what somebody else says even when you just don't like it? But then are the elders able to step in and say, yep, this is a clear viol. Of scripture and people are so not used to that anymore.
What's
the point of having elder done?
Well, it's,
I was just gonna say like, um, and I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but like if when, or if elders don't step in to help a conflict situation like that or something else, um, and then just going back to like, you know, what was it, um, that you, we just read that God walk, that God walks with the seven land stands.
So then I wonder, I'm like, are those, [00:39:00] are these like churches where the elders refuse to step in during conflict or help their congregation stay unified? Um, would you see that as um, maybe a lampstand that's not walking with the Lord and, and you know, a cause like maybe a reason to not be. Under that, um, congregation.
Yeah. I, again, it gets messy and complicated.
Yeah.
And it's not easy, but yeah, I think, I mean, Christians have a right to, um, and I think pastors have a right to say, I would not recommend that particular church
Yeah.
For X, Y, and Z. I mean, we've said it here. Um, well, some pretty obvious churches. The Mormons, the Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, the Orthodox
Yeah.
I'm talking about more,
but yeah, more evangelical.
Yes.
Yes. It, it can come to that.
Yeah.
And the thing is, um, and God is omniscient, so it's much easier for him to do this. Um, he [00:40:00] is much more long suffering than we are. Um, I mean, you see that in the history of Israel, how long he allowed them to go in rebellion.
Um, but let me, let me bring it back so we can make a little more progress. Um, I am gonna introduce something, uh, in a couple of weeks. Uh, Matt and I need to kind of. Finalize it or whatever. But, um, the guys that pray on Sunday morning and stuff, I, we want to start introducing a list of other churches and we're gonna start praying for other churches in Bonners.
We're gonna start with the pastor's group that I'm a part of. And then, and just because somebody's excluded doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for 'em. It just means, I don't know anything about the church or something, but we do want to start praying and I think we should lifting up other churches, um, the whole, the summer event thing that we do, I think it's really good because all these churches get together and, uh, so, uh, we want to do that.
But it is amazing.
Are you talking about unity?
I know, I know.
Are you, [00:41:00] and the question is, are you talking about praying for the churches? Do you agree with or praying for the churches, even the ones you disagree with?
Well, theologically, uh,
electricity,
myself and Len. Okay. Are different than everybody else in the pastor's group.
Yeah.
Okay. But I love those men. I think they're committed to Christ, I think they love Christ. Um,
and those are the one shows.
And yes, so I'm, I'm looking for churches that I would consider to be Orthodox, that love Christ. They, we don't have, they don't have to be reformed. They don't have to agree with everything that I think, I mean, Len and I don't even agree on everything, but we agree on more of the core stuff.
But no, Unity's not gonna happen until we start doing that. And so I think it's important that we start doing it. And, you know, the, the main thing is we want to pray for their faithfulness. We want to pray that God blesses them, that God blesses obedience, that God blesses faithful teaching, [00:42:00] that he would grow them, mature them in the faith.
Those are the types of things that we want to pray for. You know, pray for the health of the elders and those kinds of things. So that's kind of what I'm getting at. So, uh, verse five, and I don't mean to cut any conversation short, so if you want to keep going with it, it's just, I don't. I don't want you to accuse me of taking 14 years to get through.
I
was gonna say, not taking 10 years to go.
So, uh, verse five.
I thank you. Regardless, everybody's getting fed. So,
yeah, and, and I will say this though, um, before I move to verse five. It is interesting how Ephesus was doing everything right outwardly, and God praised them for it, but they had lost their first love.
And that can be the beginning of the end if you don't get it restored. So something to think about. Alright, verse five, Arthur.
Therefore remember from where you've fallen and repent and do the [00:43:00] deeds that you did at first or else I'm coming to you as Denise said, and I will remove your lamb sand out of its place unless you repent. Who can tell me, since we're all supposed to be doing it, what does it actually mean to repent?
Turn and walk away from the thing that's wrong.
Okay. It's, it literally, the word literally means a change of mind and a change of mind will result in a change of action. Okay. And typically, it, it's a two part process. It's a change of mind. So it's a turning from, and then it's a turning back to Christ or the right way, the right way of thinking.
So good. Um, verse verse six, yet this you do have, you hate the deeds of the Galatians, who, which I also hate. Um, so the question is, who are the Nicole Galatians? And the answer is, we don't have a clue.
Oh, [00:44:00]
mark, I got a sign, right, I got it right here. It says who were the Nicolette two are. Okay.
I'm, do you have one too?
And I'm gonna have you both read it in a minute, because I will give you some of the theory. I will say this,
it says CX 5 5 6 5.
Yes. I'm, and I'm gonna get to that one too, but, um, the interesting thing is, is when we get to the next church and we get to verses 14 and 15, he does parallel the Galatians with the teaching of Bach.
Okay. Um, so we do know, and, and I'm gonna hold off till we get to verses 14 and 15, but we do know what apparently the Ians were teaching or, uh,
I got it
promoting in the church, Arthur. But I'm curious, Mike, do you wanna read what you have?
No, I don't have anything. I, uh, it was on own question on one of those spins.
Oh. That was my personal question. But I recall digging further and finding block, but I, but I didn't write that down.
Okay.
So I don't have any reference.
All right. [00:45:00] And did, does yours say something then, rich? Yeah. What does yours say?
Uh, followers of Nicholas C Acts. Uh, chapter six, verse five. According to early church fathers.
These are apparently a sec, which advocated license in the matter of Christian conduct, including free love through some understand from the meaning of the name conquering of the people that they were a group which promoted a clerical hierarchy.
Interesting. Okay. C
Revelations two 15.
Yeah, so we'll, we'll get to 2 14 15 later.
But let me read you Acts five so that you know what they're talking about. And this is, uh, one theory, maybe the reigning theory. Um, but most people will tell you we don't know. Um, the church fathers can be very unreliable in, in some instances, especially when it comes with names and, and identifying people accurately.
Um, and it's just, it's hard and we have so little of the church fathers in reality [00:46:00] preserved for us. So, but Acts chapter six, verse five says this, and it's talking about the first, uh, set of deacons. Um, this statement found approval with the whole congregation. So they went out and chose deacons. They chose Steven, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit.
The first martyr they chose Philip Proco, n Conor, Timon, eu, and Nicholas, a ProSite from Antioch. And some folks believe that it was this Nicholas who became a heretic, uh, became somewhat of a agnostic, which would account for the hierarchy and, um, was trying to lead people astray. But that's just our best guess.
Okay. That the true answer is we don't know for sure, but because of the parallelism, when we get a little further along, we, we know that what you read about the li like licentiousness and, uh, false teaching, we have somewhat of an idea what they were teaching, [00:47:00] but we really don't know who he is. Uh, and then the last line of this letter.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the, and I won't point this out every time, but I will point it out this time, hear what the spirit is saying to the church's plural. So this is a letter to a specific single individual church, and yet all the churches are to heated, all the churches are including us.
We're to examine ourselves in light of what these guys were doing right and what they were doing wrong. So he wasn't here to let him hear what the spirit says to the church's plural, to him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is the paradise of God. So just a couple of things and we'll move on to the next letter.
It would appear, and I'll just give you some of the verses. Uh, John 1633. Uh, one John. Five, four, and five. So John 16, 33, 1 John five, four, and five. Um, he who overcomes the idea there, same author, is overcoming the world, [00:48:00] resisting sin, persevering, continuing in faith till death. Okay. And especially in this day and age, the fact that you could face a martyr's death.
Okay? Um, so that's overcoming, overcoming the world. And then I love that the Bible begins in Eden, and it ends in Eden. It talks about the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God, and that phraseology comes up again. Somebody, uh, jumped to Revelation 22 and read, uh, verses one and two. Revelation chapter 22, 1 and two.
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, right as crystal coming from the throne of God and of the lamb in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life bearing 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Okay, and then jump ahead, read verse [00:49:00] 14 as well. But everyone turned it to 22. 'cause I am gonna ask you a question about something. But 2214 as well. Neil
Les are those who wash their robes so that they may have the authority to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city.
So, uh, back to my point, Genesis begins in the garden with the tree of life.
The last book of the Bible ends in the garden with the tree of life. I think that's cool, but let me read this verse to you again. Look at 22 verse two. And I'm just, do you see anything odd here? Uh, in the middle of its streets, uh, on either side of the river was the tree of life bearing 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Anything jump out at you that you maybe wouldn't be expecting?
Past tense,
which, which part of it? [00:50:00]
Were were, oh, I guess 'cause he is looking at it and he's telling the story or telling.
Yeah. I, I wouldn't say that's past tense
of the tree were,
it just, it's just giving their function.
Okay.
I suppose I I didn't look up the Greek there.
That's a good question. I will look it up and let you know for sure.
Okay.
Um, but, uh, um,
does it mean there were three
That's interesting trees. Now you're making me wanna look down and it
says, was there. Yeah. But it says that there's a tree in the middle of the street and then one on either side of the river.
It sounds like it's the same tree on either side of the river.
Yeah. In the middle of the street, on either side of the river was the tree of life. So I, I think there's at least 12 of 'em is the point. 12 trees, 12 trees of life. Yeah. There are multiple trees of life. 12
trees producing 12 fruits
each. Yes.
Yes.
Or maybe each tree produces a different one that it's not that specific. Okay. But I do wanna look at that word.
Yes. The tree of life bearing. 12 kinds.
[00:51:00] Here
you go
every month, 12 kinds seasons.
You want to Greek whole thing.
Well,
there's 12. I'm gonna have it here in just a second. 12 months. 22.
Day day.
I think it would be weird that there would be 12 trees. The whole verse. Well, I'm just,
whenever I read that verse, I think of a tree. A tree on either side that it has a trunk here and it has a trunk here and somehow it connects the middle to the middle To
bridge tree.
Yeah,
an avatar tree.
So actually Denise is keying on, on where I'm going and sometimes they just don't understand translations.
Literally what it's saying is that the leaves of the tree of life, their purpose is for the healing of the nations. It's, it's the Greek word into. So their [00:52:00] purpose are for the healing of the nations. Okay.
And it's been that whole times
that should be odd to you. And let me tell you why it's odd. Most of us think this is the consummate new heavens and new earth.
Most of us think this is the final state. Nations don't need healing in the final state. And yet it's speaking of them as existing, I would argue now or wherever you wanna put 'em. I would say now with the coming of Christ, I would say it's the pre consummate new heavens and new earth. But it's the, the function is clear.
And I didn't look it up 'cause I figured we'll get into the detail when we get to 22, but I'm glad I did because the Greek is very clear. The purpose of these trees is for the healing of the nations. You don't need that in heaven. So what are we talking about? Because we all want to take the book of Revelation and we want to put it to the end of time.
And I have. Trying to make the case that maybe that's not what we should do with it. [00:53:00] Food for thought. That's, I want you to leave here with a little bit of a headache. Okay. Alright. Any other questions before we move on to Smyrna?
Well, what, is there any connection with the 12 fruits or the called tribes?
I think it probably is tied to, because if you go to Revelation 22, how many
fruits of the spirit? Are there any connection?
No, I don't. There's, there's not, I think there's nine fruits of the spirit. I would say the number 12 plays a prominent role in this chapter. 'cause it talks about 12 tribes. It talks about the, uh, 12 apostles.
And so I, I think it's just tying it to the church. It's another way of tying it to the function of the church. So, but we can get into a little more detail in six years when we get to Revelation 22.
I have so much that I wanna talk about in 22.
Well, if you got a question, we're almost outta [00:54:00] time anyway to start another church.
Let's
try it again.
Well, I I, I have a question in, it's not question putting that, um, chapter 22 section at as, because it's for the healing of the nations
mm-hmm.
That in a past tense or for the healings of the nations.
Yeah. I, and, and I'm already, and I'm telling you that there's no tension. That word is, is what I'm trying to say.
Okay. Um, it's just the word, it, it shows purpose. It's, it's a very common, it's a preposition and it's a preposition that basically shows purpose. So if I were gonna translate it, literally I would read it. Um, where do I put it? I turn the page. If I were gonna translate it, literally, I would read it. Um, on either side of the river was the tree of life bearing 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, [00:55:00] and the leaves of the tree were into for the purpose of the healing of the nations.
That doesn't make sense to me. Into what does that mean? That doesn't we're
four
again, it's because it's Greek, not English. So that, what I'm trying to tell you is it's the preposition, and if I were to read it literally into, but I know that that word, and you can look it up in any, it's EIS. You can look it up in any lexicon.
It will tell you that it's giving the purpose. So what it's saying is the purpose
Oh.
Of the tree of life, okay. Is to heal the nations. Okay. And that's why I think the 12 is tied into the apostles and the tribes because it's describing the church. And this is how John describes the church in Revelation 22.
Okay. So the church is the Tree of life. And the church is supposed to take this healing to the nations by bearing fruit. I think [00:56:00] that's the picture he's painting.
Could it, could it be the healing of the nations? That's, that the nations will be healed
when you arrive
when they're there.
Yeah.
There will be a healing,
but they don't need healed when they arrive in heaven.
Well,
now there is.
I mean, that's ultimate healing.
Well, it, I, it's like the No more tears. Yeah. That your tears will, you'll have no more tears at the gate. So you're healed before you get there.
Right. But this is talking about once you're inside.
Yeah. Why would there need, why would, why would there need to be healing inside?
Well, I
don't When outside are the dogs and the sorcerers
Stop it. You're taking my son there.
Yeah. Remember it's, and again, uh, if we read fur, it's always good to go back to the context, but it's clearly inside the city and then it describes what's [00:57:00] outside the city.
Okay.
So I, I would say that there's no time element in the Greek, it's just purpose element. The trees of life have a purpose to heal the nations.
Okay.
You got all these twelves. That makes more sense
actually.
Okay.
If you, if you take it that way, wouldn't that mean that starting back in the first century, the church, there was a church and its purpose was to heal the entire world.
Yes. And it's to take however long it takes, and when that's done, it's done.
Then Jesus comes back
and we don't need healing.
That's my view.
I mean, that would make, I mean, from that, that would be what if that's how that, I mean, I'm trusting you with the interpretations. I agree. Right. But that would be my interpretation is it started, it started with the resurrection and it'll go until it's done.
And God always wins. Yeah. It's just a matter of, it's on his time. We don't know when.
Right. And I, and I would take you back because there's so many parables, but the parable of [00:58:00] the mustard seed.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. It starts really small and then it gets gigantic. Was the point. So, I mean, I could go back to a bunch of the different parables and I think they teach the same thing.
But Yeah. I You summarized very well how I would put it, and I, and I think because I know this is hard for some of us, 'cause we're so used to the way we use language and we're so used to the way, uh, modern day evangelicals use language. What I'm saying, what I'm humbly challenging you with is we've got to get back to how scripture uses language and how scripture defines things and.
And, um, that's hard to do, which is why unity is hard. So until we can learn to challenge ourselves, it's gonna be really hard to arrive at the unity that we want to arrive at, because most of us don't even like challenging ourselves. [00:59:00] Other thought? We're not gonna go any further. So, any other questions?
Yes, rich.
Okay. The last word in English says nations.
Mm-hmm.
And in my Greek translation says Gentiles. Yeah. Is that typical?
Same thing. Go. Well, that would be Hebrew. Um, there, it's probably Ethnos. Is it Ethnos?
The B Omega. Uh, what's the
I'll look it up. Hold on.
That's
great. Here. Right there. I got it. I
got
it
in front of me, sir.
Ethno? Yeah. Ethnos. Ethno. That's just plural. Okay.
Not ethos.
So, yeah. So Greek's different than English with Greek, if it's first person, second person, third person, it all takes different shapes and forms. It has different endings, but it's the, the root of the word that stays the same. So Ethnos would be singular, eth known, which is that word just means pl.
It's easier than Russian. Anything. Everything's easier than Russian.
Everything's easier than Russian [01:00:00]
fighting words.
They have numbers in their alphabets.
Close are letters.
Are letters. Alright, any other questions before we uh,
quit?
Close?
I have one.
Yes. Go.
So this is the last, last book, last chapter of the Bible.
And the first book. And the first chapter of the Bible. We talk about the moon and the sun. We're given, uh, governing authority to show what the seasons are.
Mm-hmm.
But now we're saying there's not gonna be any sun, moon, but there's still seasons.
Mm-hmm.
How does that.
Again, figurative language.
Okay.
So I, I don't think, um, ultimately consummate form, um, I don't know what that's gonna look like to be honest with you.
Um, but, uh, it's because God's presence is there. Mm-hmm. So we don't need it because our light comes from God. So again, it's descriptive and we gotta go back and see how that language is used elsewhere
there. [01:01:00] Five, I think we can't understand what it is because God, if God hasn't shown us some of the language that he uses, I think, whoa.
Well, remember all the way back in chapter one of Revelation, it says that I'm gonna reveal this in symbols. So in order to understand this language, we still have to go back to the Old Testament and see how this language was used. Mm-hmm. And the sun and the moon and the stars are used a variety of ways in the Old Testament that we don't use 'em that way in English.
Okay.
But you think about we need here on earth in our bodies. We need food, we need rest, we need light. We need day, we need night there. That won't be, well, there'll be food, but, but no day or night, Jesus will be the light.
Okay. And so very good. But should we take that literally as in the day and night, or should we take it as pointing towards [01:02:00] a holiness because Jesus is present?
I was gonna say, I feel like verses three through five or more of a description of the church now, like the saying of there shall be no more curse. We're not under the curse of sin anymore. The throne of the God and the lamb shall be there. Now we have the spirit of Christ with us. Um, his servant shall serve him.
It's the duty of the church to serve the people. Now, like he said, the healing of the nation. Or you know, there shall be no night there. We no longer have the fear of death 'cause Christ was risen from the
bed. She's good.
Yeah. Jeez Steve,
you're blessed.
She's blessed.
I feel like it's more of a present description of what the kind of life we have here now as being part of the church body and having Christ with us than it is a description of what heaven will be like.
Exactly.
And, and I agree with you. The only caveat I would put in there is it does point forward as well and that can lead to some of the [01:03:00] confusion. But I think you did a great job.
Okay,
well
done. So then we will reign forever and ever. Yes. Life eternal.
We're already remember, go back to Ephesians chapter two, we're we've ascended with Christ and we are seated with him right now.
We are in the kingdom
of heaven on his throne,
like in the kingdom, in God
Kingdom right now, you should be living your life on earth as you are not a resident of birth, but you are a resident of of heaven living on earth to help the people cure. It.
Okay. This is what I like because
yeah.
Alright, let's pray.
We will pray. I wanna honor and respect your time, but if you have more questions, you can stay and asked. Father, thank you so much. Thank you for this book. Thank you that, uh, it's written in a way that it, it does blow our minds sometimes, but, uh, thank you for challenging us. Continue to challenge us, continue to make this fun.
Father, continue that, uh, in a microcosm, we will create unity here 'cause we may not all agree on, on every last jot and tittle in this book. But Father, my [01:04:00] prayer would be that we would agree on the, the major points, um, and that we would challenge ourselves. Um, and we would let your word speak so spirit of God, please teach us.
Please instruct us. Um, may we be the kinds of people that iron does sharpen iron and we're willing to have these conversations and have fun with it. Uh, it should be fun. We should be enjoying you. So Father, thank you. Thank you for your word. We ask all this in Christ's name. Amen. Amen. Very good
break.
So I.
